Oral-History:Fusao Mori

About Fusau Mori

Fusao Mori is an electrical engineer who began his career as an engineer in the Electrotechnical Laboratory (ETL) of Japan's Postal and Telecommunications Ministry. After receiving a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from Tokyo University, Mori worked on electrical power systems at ETL and completed a Ph.D. thesis on power systems and arc extinguishing. He became president of ETL in 1970 and oversaw the laboratory's move away from electrical power research towards emphases on information processing and energy. In 1973 Mori attended the World Energy Conference in Detroit where he gave a speech on international cooperation in energy research and development. He also served on the U.N. Advisory Council for renewable energy. At the age of fifty-two, Mori retired from his position at the ETL and went to work at Mitsubishi, where he worked on "non-conventional energy" projects for developing nations. In 1976 he became involved in LSI research and development, and was eventually named chief of MITI's LSI project that strengthened Mitsubishi's hand in the LSI field.

The interview begins with a discussion of Mori's family's activities in electrical engineering, treatment of his university experience and his early days at ETL. The interview focuses first on his activities as an engineer at ETL and then moves to a discussion of his managerial position and strategies, both during his ETL career and his later career at Mitsubishi. Mori discusses the difficulties involved in transferring information between research and production personnel; he also describes in some detail the hierarchical patterns involved in government/business relations in Japan especially where funding was concerned.

About the Interview

Fusao Mori: An Interview Conducted by William Aspray, IEEE History Center, May 27th, 1994

Interview # 214 for the IEEE History Center, The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc.

Copyright Statement

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Request for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the IEEE History Center Oral History Program, IEEE History Center at Stevens Institute of Technology, Castle Point on Hudson, Hoboken, NJ 07030 USA. It should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user.

It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:

Fusao Mori, an oral history conducted in 1994 by William Aspray, IEEE History Center, New Brunswick, NJ, USA.

Interview

Interview: Fusao Mori

Interviewer: William Aspray

Date: May 27th, 1994

Place: Headquarter of Mitsubishi Electric, Tokyo

[NOTE: Dr. Yuzo Takahashi of Tokyo University of Agriculture and Technology helps with translation and fills in some background information.]

Family Background and Childhood

Aspray:

Could we begin by having you tell us about when you were born, and where, and what your parents did?

Mori:

I was born in Tokyo. My father Hide Mori was an electrical engineer.

Aspray:

Oh?

Mori:

Before the war, he was with the Postal and Telecommunications Ministry, in charge of the electrical power, the administration. You also want to know about my grandfather?

Aspray:

Yes.

Mori:

He was the first schoolmaster of the Metropolitan Second Middle School, now called Tachikawa High School.

Translator:

The father of his grandfather was a teacher in a very, very traditional Japanese school, called Terakoya, and that was established in Yedo era. That's the center of education in all cities and towns.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

My father was graduated from the Tokyo Imperial University, in the Department of Electrical Engineering, in 1917, and joined the Postal and Telecommunications Ministry. I was born in such surroundings; I was very familiar with electrical engineering, mainly with amateur radio, influenced by students of Waseda University because my father taught at the Waseda University as well.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

I set up a record player and an audio set when I was in middle school. These are my brothers. This is a document by my brother. Please keep this one.

Aspray:

Thank you.

Mori:

His name is Yasuo Mori. Since 1984, he has been the 5th foreign associate of the National Academy of Engineering of the USA.

Aspray:

That's very distinguished.

Mori:

If you can see, in 1984, he was the Springer Distinguished Visiting Professor of Berkeley and so on. He's working in Hawaii, and is now a president of the International Center for Heat and Mass Transfer, 1990-1994. You can find he was in the American Society of Mechanical Engineers, and so on. That paper, "Pre-combustion Removal of Carbon Dioxide," was presented to the International Center of High Technology Research in Hawaii. His book is on global environmental protection.

Aspray:

Were you a good student when you were growing up?

Mori:

I only remember playing baseball.

Aspray:

When you were a child, what did you expect to do when you became an adult?

Mori:

Nothing in particular. But in high school, at about eighteen years old, in English class, the American professor taught us to write about our hope, or our dream. I wrote, "I want to go to the United States when the airplane is operated by electric energy." Not yet! But I hoped. I guess at the last minute at high school, I decided to study electrical engineering.

University of Tokyo

Aspray:

How did you choose to go to the University of Tokyo?

Mori:

I was born in Tokyo. I thought that Tokyo people entered the Tokyo Imperial University and that other universities were for other people.

Aspray:

What was the emphasis within your course of electrical engineering?

Mori:

It was a very old style of learning the profession. At my graduation, my Professor Nishi, told me that he had already decided to send me to the Electro-Technical Laboratory (ETL) of the Postal and Telecommunications Ministry. That's all. My graduation thesis was on analog computers.

Aspray:

For power applications?

Mori:

No.

Aspray:

Just in analog computers.

Mori:

Do you know Professor Hideo Yamashita?

Aspray:

No.

Mori:

He worked on the first computer. Excellent professor. My teacher for the doctorate was Professor Yamashita. Also Yamashita was the teacher of Doctor Yamamura, whom you interviewed.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

It's the history of the development of the Japanese computer. Under the direction of professors Yamashita and Hidetoshi Takahashi, Dr. Hiroshi Wada was involved in making the computer, and the transistors were supplied by Sony at that time.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

Professor Nishi, my teacher, decided that I was allowed to enter the ETL, to join the ETL, but there were no details, not for specific division. At that time researchers at ETL were very free. We did not belong to any special division. We were so for two or three years after graduation. It was very similar to a postgraduate course.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

During these very free years, about twenty or thirty such research pupils gathered every month.

Aspray:

Were there other people from your time at Tokyo University who had an influence on your career?

Mori:

Professor Yamashita. When I had to choose the theme of my graduation thesis, at that time I asked my father, "Who is the best for me? It doesn't matter about the topic; what matters is only the personality of the professor." So my father chose Professor Yamashita. All the theses were about the computer.

Aspray:

Did you have a particular interest in computers?

Mori:

Yes. For example, after entering the ETL, my boss was Doctor Mochinori Goto.

Aspray:

Oh yes.

Mori:

You know him?

Aspray:

I know of him.

Mori:

He gave me a theme on the electrical circuit, including the arc discharge. That was a non-linear phenomenon, and we had to use analog computers. But none was available in Japan. The only one was a mechanical integrator of the Bush type.

Aspray:

Oh, right, a differential analyzer.

Mori:

There was only one differential analyzer in Japan at Tokyo Imperial University. Mochinori Goto was a different person from Professor Eiichi Goto. Michinori was also a distinguished person, mainly in mathematical engineering. He had solved some non-linear oscillation problems in power systems.

Electrotechnical Testing Laboratory

Aspray:

Before we talk about your own work at ETL, could you give me some background about ETL, and how the war and the post-war period changed the work that was going on there?

Mori:

I didn't feel such a change in the mainstream of the research, but I myself was engaged in the wartime with army airplane ignition system. The fuel was alcohol, not gasoline.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

I learned how to operate the ignition by a discharge. I was engaged in this for one or two years during the war. That was the main theme for me in electrical circuitry, including gas discharges. I didn't change the main theme. My boss, Professor Goto, gave me that theme. My doctoral thesis was also research on power systems and arc extinguishment.

Aspray:

Was the doctoral thesis something that you could write while you were still at ETL, or did you have to take time off from working there to go back to university?

Mori:

No.

Translator:

When he submitted the doctoral thesis he was still with the ETL, because in Japan we have such a system, for thesis doctors.

Aspray:

So you just write it at your work site?

Mori:

Yes.

Aspray:

Could you tell me some of the main things that you worked on at ETL?

Mori:

First, we mainly did research in electrical power systems, and then moved to power generation. After that I was engaged in research management

Peterson Coil Grounding System

Aspray:

Yes. Let's concentrate for now on before you became a manager, while you were still working as a regular engineer.

Mori:

My first research theme was in Japan’s electric power systems. At that time the transmission voltage was gradually increasing, and there were many problems, but my research was about neutral point grounding systems. The Peterson Coil grounding system was very easy to operate. With one line fault, the arc voltage extinguishes automatically, but when the voltage gets higher and higher it is very difficult to extinguish the one line fault. The two or three line fault you cannot extinguish. For example, a 275-kilovolt system was preferred for directly grounded systems. I think the Petersen coil grounding system was not applicable because 275 kilovolt is very high, and the one line fault current got bigger. Many engineers, and the American power system, are directed to a direct-grounded system. My theme was under what conditions the neutral coil grounding system is useful. I did many experiments about the arc extinguishing phenomena, and the power systems conditions, but the conclusion was not clear. It depended on the probabilistic. It's a very short time or a very long time that the arcing fault continues, and I wrote down the graph of the probability curves. The conclusion is that the Petersen coil grounding system is not applicable for such a high voltage system. That was my doctoral thesis.

But after that, two or three years’ later, German engineers wrote down almost the same results. I didn't report it to any international congress, but that was my doctoral thesis I presented to my teachers at the Tokyo Imperial University. Then I finished research on the grounding Peterson coil system. After that, there came out a small problem in direct grounding systems with two terminals. With a fault-detected line, they open it at both terminals, and a completely free wire results. But a small current goes through from the coupling of the capacitor between the lines and this fault current is a capacitive current, then the arc continues for one third, or one fourth of a second. Reclosing time is maybe ten cycles. They close the switchgear, then again it breaks down or not, it is very similar to the extinguish phenomenon of Petersen coil one-line fault system, because that is probabilistic. I gave the solution for that problem also. My theories are applicable to that case. Then I finished this work on transmission line phenomena and went on to power generation. The ETL has many power researchers, but they all worked on the transmission lines, or distribution lines, or the application, not power generation research.

Aspray:

Why is that?

Mori:

Many electrical power companies do not like outside people. Since 1960, for one-and- a-half years I worked on the coordination of the ETL at a planning section. After that I was in the machinery division. Then my research changed to the MHD power generation, super-conducting magnets, and so on from 1961.

Magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) Generation

Aspray:

What was the source of MHD generation?

Mori:

At that time the price of oil was going down, but all the electric power companies saw that the future would be in cheap oil for power generation. If MHD power generation was not useful, if it didn't compete with prices of oil, then so many electrical power generation engineers wouldn't try to do research on the MHD. At the beginning of the MHD research, in 1959, Doctor Kantrovich at the Avco laboratories presented a paper on how MHD power generation could be useful. Avco is the aviation corporation. That is the nose cone of the re-entry problem. This made Avco very famous. Professor Kantrovich was from Cornell.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

He is still working for the MHD at Avco research laboratory.

Aspray:

What was your particular work on MHD? What was your role?

Mori:

The main reason for me to start the MHD power generation is the Japanese energy problem. The percentage of imported energy is gradually increasing.

Aspray:

Yes.

Mori:

Before 1960, 20-30 percent was imported, but it gradually increased, which I forecast in the 1970 or 1980s. By this time almost ninety percent would be imported. We had to increase power generation efficiency. That was the main reason for me to start the MHD power generation. Still it is a very important issue for Japan.

Aspray:

Yes. And what was your role in the project?

Mori:

In 1966, MITI began the national project. I started the MHD research in 1962 or so. In 1966, MITI began the national project in order to have Japanese original technologies, and to have the special project under the government budget.

Aspray:

I don't know how large an operation this is. Were you doing this on your own, or were there many people working on it? What part was yours?

Mori:

That is 1966. One-megawatt MHD power generation was achieved, that is electrical power output, not thermal input. In order to make such a project we needed the manufacturers – Mitsubishi Heavy Industry, Toshiba, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Electric – and Professor Y. Mori. He's the heat and mass transfer specialist, and there was Professor Tadashi Sekiguti from Tokyo University, plus the ETL people, so there were maybe twenty or thirty people involved. This includes the superconducting magnet. It's another very big task for me. The ordinary copper and iron magnet cannot make good MHD power generation, so the superconducting magnet is a very important part of the project. We made our first MHD magnet. The wire was imported from the United States. The magnet is the first in the world for MHD, but it's not even one megawatt; it’s maybe three hundred kilowatts MHD output. That was 1968 or so. It continued maybe more than ten years, but it has not been successful. We had twenty or thirty people from manufacturers, and also the researchers, in hardware.

Translator:

MHD is a very, very big project, and it needs the integration of every field of technology. One of the technologies is superconductivity.

Aspray:

But I still don't understand what your particular role was among all these different people who that were working on it. Were you managing the people at ETL?

Translator:

He was involved in every project. Mostly in the beginning his role was to get them going.

Mori:

This project is very useful for Japan.

Aspray:

So you would get the research going and then turn it over to somebody else and work on another aspect, or another project?

Translator:

He always supervised the projects, but at the beginning he was one of the researchers.

Aspray:

I see.

Translator:

He selected some of the technologies.

Mori:

Then the MHD and superconducting, and after that the pattern recognition project, and so on.

Aspray:

Was the work on the superconducting magnet in the MHD project successful?

Mori:

The superconducting magnet itself was successful, but the total MHD project was very difficult. The current goes through the gas phase and the solid phase, and it's very difficult to manage such a boundary. The United States is still working on this, some big MHD's in Butte, Montana.

Thermonuclear Fusion

Aspray:

I see. Can you tell me about the work on thermonuclear fusion reaction?

Mori:

Some is on cold fusion. This research is doubtful. Up to now some excess heat can be detected, but there is no nuclear fusion.

Aspray:

Right. Was this the beginning of the study of that subject in Japan?

Takahashi:

He understands that in Hakkaido a project will start on cold fusion technology development. MITI will fund it.

Mori:

Magnetically confined nuclear fusion is very difficult; maybe it will be successful in the next century, or in the twenty-second century, I don't know. There is international co-operation, conducted in Japan, with the US, Russia, and Europe.

Aspray:

I understand that it hasn't become a working technology yet, and it's still being worked on in a number of places, but I see from this curriculum vitae that from 1964 to 1972 you were working on this subject. Was that while you were at ETL? Is that where this research program started in Japan?

Mori:

About the thermonuclear fusion reactions: In Japan there were many discussions in the government, the Atomic Energy Commission, and also the Science Council of Japan. There are many excellent physicists. Some basic research is in academia. Now, it's the thermonuclear fusion laboratory near Nagoya city. The other research centers are atomic energy research laboratories, and the ETL. The Riken (Rikagaku Kenkyujo, the Institute of Physical and Chemical Research) type, at the Osaka University, inertia confinement. This is a laser fusion. The Science Council of Japan and the Ministry of Education are included in the Atomic Energy Commission's project. The ETL is in charge of the (theta) pinch type of thermonuclear fusion. The atomic energy research laboratories were working on a very big JT-60. That is the long-range program by the Atomic Energy Commission about the nuclear fusion research in Japan. It's a project, but we have two or three types. One has a very big budget, and the other does very small. Usually a Japanese way of doing has only one project, one type. But nuclear fusion research had is very controversy how to promote Japanese research since 1960.

Translator:

He studied this project when he belonged to the power electrical power department, and he moved to the electrical machinery department as a manager. He still continued this project as a supervisor.

Mori:

Mainly using high-voltage technologies, the impulse current generators. ETL had the biggest capacity of the impulse current generators in Japan. Other laboratories did not have such a big capacity or current discharge. And it was Ø (theta) pinch discharge phenomena. Now there are many modifications of the Ø pinch. But at the beginning, we utilized the impulse voltage on the impulse current generators, and a small glass tube, and discharges, for the nuclear fusion research.

Shift to Information Processing

Aspray:

I see that in 1971 and 1972 you worked on a pattern recognition system.

Mori:

Yes.

Aspray:

That seems very far removed from all the work on power that you had been doing. How did this come about?

Mori:

Around this period, all the technologies, and the situations with ETL have been changing from electric power research to information processing. The first ETL transistor computer was built around 1955 or so. In 1960s, we challenged to make Japanese-English translation machine.

Aspray:

So the focus of the ETL research was changing?

Mori:

Yes. In the 1960s we moved to information processing, entering the information age that they talk about today. In 1970, when I was the President of ETL, I changed the Japanese name of ETL from Denki-Shikenjo to Denshi-Gijutsu Sogo Kenkyujo. I changed the laboratory's name. By 1970, most research was on information processing. I changed the electric power system division to the energy division.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

No more electric power. In 1970 I forecast the oil shock of 1973. I wanted to change the name of the laboratory to "Information Processing Laboratories." But other people didn't agree!

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

The name “Electronics Laboratory,” I didn’t want. In Japanese, "Sogo" is integration of the very big concept of electronics. Such a name would include information processing. Then Sogo can change, so I agreed.

Translator:

Exactly speaking, in Japanese, in 1970, the title of the institute was changed, but in English the same name was used.

Aspray:

Can you give me a more exact translation of the before and after names?

Translator:

Japan Electrical Testing Laboratory was the former name. And after that it was called the Electronic Integration Technology Research Institute, something like that.

Aspray:

Thank you. Now, this is a very big change in emphasis for an organization. You probably didn't have enough money to just go out and hire a new whole set of people that had different skills. How did you manage this change? You still had all these traditional power engineers working for you. How did you manage to get the kind of researcher you needed to do this work?

Mori:

All the researchers in charge of the electric power systems did switch to the energy division. They moved to photovoltaic power generation, or energy storage, or to a similar area. But the others in charge of electronics, or information processing, didn't change.

Aspray:

But was more money put into those fields, rather than into power?

Mori:

Until 1973 it was not so much, but after the oil shock, very big money came. In 1974, the Sunshine Project started. The Sunshine Project gave money for all the energy programs.

Aspray:

Right.

Takahashi:

From MITI.

Aspray:

Yes.

Mori:

But each year we received so many allocations.

Aspray:

But I think I am asking a different question.

Mori:

Yes?

Aspray:

I understand that until the oil crisis there weren't a lot of resources put into the power side, but what about the resources that were put into the information and electronics side of the laboratory? If you were changing the name of the organization to emphasize that, you might want to put some additional resources in there. You might have had some people, but maybe you need to have more people with new skills.

Mori:

Electronics, including the information processing research division, was already a main part of ETL. The electric power systems division was gradually decreasing in numbers.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

For example, MITI made good research policy in 1958. The Japanese Electronics Industry Development Association (JEIDA) started in 1958 or so. Some of the government budget for ETL was not directly through MITI. Some manager of the ETL directly contacted the prime minister and got the big money for electronics because of the transistor computer, the first in the world. So many people, and also the industry, pushed for such a project. I was appointed in 1960 to the planning division; then they promoted electronics more and more. Then in 1970, the name of the Laboratories was changed.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

Already the information work was growing.

Aspray:

So the change of the name in 1970 is a reflection of something that's already happened.

Mori:

Yes, in 1951 the CRIEPI (Central Research Institute of Electric Power Industry) was established, and ETL was gradually decreasing the effort of its power systems.

Aspray:

I see.

Mori:

It was a very natural change of name.

Mitsubishi Electric

Aspray:

How did you come to leave ETL and come to Mitsubishi Electric?

Mori:

The first reason is, so many government people retired around the age of 52 or 50. I was at the age of fifty-two. The second reason was what were my choices for a job. I did not want to be a professor. It's a very hard job to educate students. Lecturing is very easy, but it is very hard for me to influence the students. I was asked to come to Mitsubishi, Toshiba, or the like. The best company is Mitsubishi.

Mori:

Out of my graduate class of thirty-five people, seven people are in Toshiba.

Takahashi:

Too many in Toshiba.

Mori:

Yes, if I went to Toshiba, then eight people from Tokyo University would be in Toshiba. Mitsubishi had two people, and Hitachi also had two people. It might be a peculiar reason, but a very natural one, to move to Mitsubishi.

Aspray:

What was the function of the Central Research Laboratory at Mitsubishi?

Mori:

The Central Research Laboratory was established about fifty years ago, and now it's in charge of the basic research for all of Mitsubishi Electric. We have about ten research laboratories, but only one is for the so-called corporate planning. It is concerned with the basic research. Other research laboratories belong to each business group, although not directly. In the organizational hierarchy each belongs to the R&D group. Actually, these other research laboratories work for these businesses. The Central Research Laboratory is independent from business units.

Aspray:

Can you give me a couple of examples of the kinds of projects that would be seen as properly studied in the Central Research Laboratory?

Mori:

Now?

Aspray:

At that time.

Mori:

In my own case, I stayed in headquarters, not at the Central Research Laboratory, and in charge of the energy program.

Aspray:

I see.

Oil Shock & "Nonconventional" Energy

Mori:

It was immediately after the 1973 oil shock. Then I joined the World Energy Conference held in Detroit, with President Ford and so many famous people there. Five thousand people gathered. After that, I moved to VLSI and I did research.

Aspray:

Can you say a little more about your work on the energy crisis? What you did, and what the company did in that area?

Mori:

I joined the World Energy Conference, one of the very excellent energy conferences in the world, and made a speech on international cooperation in energy R&D. That was a round-table discussion, with five or six papers discussed. At that time there was no good idea for energy problem solution. All over the world, oil was scarce; coal was ample and so on. The only good common concept was cooperation. But at that time the United States wanted project independence, that is, no dependence on other countries. But Japan has a very dependent project, no independent policy, and co-operation is the best solution for Japan, that is, international cooperation for energy R&D.

Aspray:

It says under your list of research activities for 1972 to 1974, "Non-conventional energy." What were some of these?

Mori:

That was the United Nations, maybe, the United Nations ACAST, Advisory Committee on the Application of Science and Technology for the Development.

Aspray:

What is it?

Translator:

It's for renewable energy.

Mori:

ACAST held a non-conventional energy symposium in Vienna. It's main devotees were the developing countries, for example, Iraq: solar cooking, solar cooling, or such projects strange for developed countries.

Aspray:

Were there any experiments going on inside of Mitsubishi to work on these?

Mori:

At that time, no such hardware research, only the concepts. I proposed a water boiler using a solar panel. The solar photovoltaic cell at that time was very expensive. The water boiler by the solar panel will be very cheap one day, useful for the energy crisis. We made some very good ones, but the sales network was not sufficient. At that time, the total number of solar panels used in Japan was three or four million, before the oil shock. Then afterwards they began this special research for the fuel cell. Now the solar cell is very sophisticated.

LSI Research & Development

Aspray:

I understand that in 1976 you moved over to the LSI R&D program. Could you tell me about why Mitsubishi was interested in doing research in LSI?

Mori:

At first, with the beginning of the IC and so on, Westinghouse's “Molectron” technology was at the top level. Then Mitsubishi had to make similar IC systems. That is, at the top level in Japan. But after that, Westinghouse slowed down.

Aspray:

You were a licensee?

Mori:

Yes. This was around 1975 or 1976 President Shindo of Mitsubishi Electric Corporation decided to join the VISI project. There were two projects. One was the NTT project. One was from MITI. The NTT one started before the MITI project. That was supported by NEC, Hitachi Oki, Fujitsu. There were the four of NTT family. Toshiba and Mitsubishi were outside the NTT family. MITI started the project, with the NEC, Hitachi, Fujitsu, Toshiba. Then Oki and Mitsubishi had difficulty to join the program. Then an officer said, "President Shindo, contact the MITI," and we were very eager to join the project. Oki could not join that project. All the NTT's know-how would be transferred to Oki and it was placed outside the MITI project. This was the background of the project. Then Mitsubishi’s technology was very weak, difficult to contribute the project. Because I was experienced in the ETL LSI, so was told, "You must be chief of the project" in the MITI project, where I have so many intimate friends.

Aspray:

Did participation in these two projects strengthen Mitsubishi's position in LSI?

Mori:

Yes, very much. Other companies said that Mitsubishi got the best fruits from the MITI project.

Aspray:

I see. What was the strategic value in having strength in LSI for your company? Was it that you wanted to manufacture integrated circuits for sales, or did you want to be able to custom-build them for use in your own systems?

Mori:

Both. One example is the LSI for the video recorder, that is, the VCR. Mitsubishi makes the VHS type, and Sony makes the Beta type, and the semiconductors division also sells LSI to Sony. But it is very difficult for the semiconductor division to sell LSI to the competitor. But, I think that, at that time, the most important device was the DRAM. All five manufacturers gathered on the DRAM. In the future the DRAM will be a technology driver, or a key strategically device. It is not the Japanese orientation that is the American side information. At that time, the MITI made Mitsubishi, Hitachi, and Fujitsu set up a new company to receive MITI funds. It was only to this subsidiary, not to the parent companies. At that time, when the research laboratories made some new device, then the factories reinvented the design for production, and it was very difficult to transfer the technology from the research lab to the production factories. So I made a new system, one production line taking half from the research people and half from the factory people, and this system is very successful. Afterwards Toshiba made a similar system, and so on. It's my idea. Then Mitsubishi caught up to the top of the companies. In addition MITI required a research association, composed of two or three subsidiaries like NTIS of NEC and Toshiba, as well as CDL of Mitsubishi, Hitachi, and Fujitsu.

Translator:

The hierarchy is very complicated for the companies. They established one association, partly funded by MITI and the government. The alternative association was several manufacturing companies, making another company. Toshiba and some companies made one company, and Mitsubishi and Oki made another company, and the company was funded by several of these manufacturing companies. Then the hierarchies were complicated. The project continued just for four years.

Mori:

At that time there was a very strong U.S. claim for anti-trust.

Aspray:

Yes, right.

Mori:

Mainly IBM claimed it. But now these U.S. makers have so many consortia.

Aspray:

We really have to stop now, unfortunately. Thank you very much.