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Oral-History:Herman Schwan (1992)

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== About Herman Schwan  ==
 
== About Herman Schwan  ==
  
<p>[[Image:Herman Schwan.jpg|thumb|left|Herman P. Schwan]] </p>
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[[Image:Herman Schwan.jpg|thumb|left|Herman P. Schwan]]  
  
<p>[[Herman P. Schwan|Herman P. Schwan]] was a winner of the [[IEEE Edison Medal|IEEE Edison Medal]], a member of the National Academy of Engineering, and a recipient of an honorary doctorate from the University of Pennsylvania. Schwan contributed to the growth of biomedical engineering in several ways. He pioneered new research areas: dielectric properties of biological materials — from molecules to whole organisms-at high and low frequencies, the propagation of electromagnetic energy in biological materials, and the ultrasonic properties of biological materials. He achieved both accurate measurement of properties and explanation of many of the observed values. Furthermore, he applied the resulting biophysical understanding to practical problems: understanding electrode effects, developing new diagnostic and therapeutic instruments, and helping to set microwave safety standards. And he helped build the institutional basis-both at the University of Pennsylvania and in several thriving professional organizations — for the new discipline. </p>
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[[Herman P. Schwan|Herman P. Schwan]] was a winner of the [[IEEE Edison Medal|IEEE Edison Medal]], a member of the National Academy of Engineering, and a recipient of an honorary doctorate from the University of Pennsylvania. Schwan contributed to the growth of biomedical engineering in several ways. He pioneered new research areas: dielectric properties of biological materials — from molecules to whole organisms-at high and low frequencies, the propagation of electromagnetic energy in biological materials, and the ultrasonic properties of biological materials. He achieved both accurate measurement of properties and explanation of many of the observed values. Furthermore, he applied the resulting biophysical understanding to practical problems: understanding electrode effects, developing new diagnostic and therapeutic instruments, and helping to set microwave safety standards. And he helped build the institutional basis-both at the University of Pennsylvania and in several thriving professional organizations — for the new discipline.  
  
<p>This focus of this oral history is on Schwan's career. [[Oral-History:Herman Schwan (1999)|See Also Herman Schwan Oral History 1999]], where the focus is on Schwan's role as a founder and leader of the IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society. </p>
+
This focus of this oral history is on Schwan's career. [[Oral-History:Herman Schwan (1999)|See Also Herman Schwan Oral History 1999]], where the focus is on Schwan's role as a founder and leader of the IEEE Engineering in Medicine and Biology Society.  
  
 
== About the Interview  ==
 
== About the Interview  ==
  
<p>HERMAN SCHWAN: An Interview Conducted by Frederik Nebeker, IEEE History Center, June 26, 1992 and July 1, 1992 </p>
+
HERMAN SCHWAN: An Interview Conducted by Frederik Nebeker, IEEE History Center, June 26, 1992 and July 1, 1992  
  
<p>Interview # 140 for the IEEE History Center, The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. </p>
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Interview # 140 for the IEEE History Center, The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc.  
  
 
== Copyright Statement  ==
 
== Copyright Statement  ==
  
<p>This manuscript is being made available for research purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the IEEE History Center. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of IEEE History Center. </p>
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This manuscript is being made available for research purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the IEEE History Center. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of IEEE History Center.  
  
<p>Request for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the IEEE History Center Oral History Program, 39 Union Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8538 USA. It should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user. </p>
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Request for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the IEEE History Center Oral History Program, 39 Union Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8538 USA. It should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user.  
  
<p>It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: </p>
+
It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:  
  
<p>Herman Schwan, an oral history conducted in 1992 by Frederik Nebeker, IEEE History Center, New Brunswick, NJ, USA. </p>
+
Herman Schwan, an oral history conducted in 1992 by Frederik Nebeker, IEEE History Center, New Brunswick, NJ, USA.  
  
 
== Interview  ==
 
== Interview  ==
  
<p>INTERVIEW: Herman Schwan </p>
+
INTERVIEW: Herman Schwan  
  
<p>INTERVIEWED BY: Rik Nebeker </p>
+
INTERVIEWED BY: Rik Nebeker  
  
<p>PLACE: Herman Schwan's home in Radnor, PA </p>
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PLACE: Herman Schwan's home in Radnor, PA  
  
<p>DATE: June 26 and July 1, 1992 </p>
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DATE: June 26 and July 1, 1992  
  
 
=== German Childhood and Early Education  ===
 
=== German Childhood and Early Education  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>This is an interview with [[Herman P. Schwan|Herman Schwan]] at his home in Radnor, Pennsylvania on the 26th of June 1992. The interviewer is Rik Nebeker. You were born on August 7, 1915 in Aachen, Germany? </p>
+
This is an interview with [[Herman P. Schwan|Herman Schwan]] at his home in Radnor, Pennsylvania on the 26th of June 1992. The interviewer is Rik Nebeker. You were born on August 7, 1915 in Aachen, Germany?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Could you describe your parents for me? What your father did and so on? </p>
+
Could you describe your parents for me? What your father did and so on?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Well, both my parents came from middle-class families. My father became a high school teacher. </p>
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Well, both my parents came from middle-class families. My father became a high school teacher.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was he a gymnasium teacher? </p>
+
Was he a gymnasium teacher?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. But he was perhaps most interested in science. He published a number of papers in mathematics, geometry particularly, which made him quite well known in Germany. He also published several books on mathematics which were quite well received in Germany at the time. He became closely affiliated with the mathematics faculty at the University of Frankfurt. He had many friends there. </p>
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Yes. But he was perhaps most interested in science. He published a number of papers in mathematics, geometry particularly, which made him quite well known in Germany. He also published several books on mathematics which were quite well received in Germany at the time. He became closely affiliated with the mathematics faculty at the University of Frankfurt. He had many friends there.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were born in Aachen? </p>
+
You were born in Aachen?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I was born in Aachen. I lived there only two and a half years so I have virtually no memory of the town whatsoever. Then my father was active as a teacher in a little town called Bad Kreuznach near the Rhine River, about ten miles south of Bingen. That was perhaps its best time. We lived there for some ten years. That was the time when my father was in close contact with the faculty at Frankfurt, which was reached by train in an hour or so. I think he wrote most of his publications, and his books as well, in Kreuznach. </p>
+
I was born in Aachen. I lived there only two and a half years so I have virtually no memory of the town whatsoever. Then my father was active as a teacher in a little town called Bad Kreuznach near the Rhine River, about ten miles south of Bingen. That was perhaps its best time. We lived there for some ten years. That was the time when my father was in close contact with the faculty at Frankfurt, which was reached by train in an hour or so. I think he wrote most of his publications, and his books as well, in Kreuznach.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. Where did you live after you left Kreuznach? </p>
+
I see. Where did you live after you left Kreuznach?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>For a few years we lived in Dusseldorf, which is a city north of Cologne. </p>
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For a few years we lived in Dusseldorf, which is a city north of Cologne.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When did you move there? </p>
+
When did you move there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>We moved to Dusseldorf about 1928. </p>
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We moved to Dusseldorf about 1928.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>May I ask before we move too far in time about your mother? </p>
+
May I ask before we move too far in time about your mother?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>My mother also came from a fairly well-to-do family. Her father was in charge of the railway system in Siegen, in north western Germany. They built a large house. They were the first ones to have central heating, gas, and electricity. I remember that house very well since I often spent summer vacations there. </p>
+
My mother also came from a fairly well-to-do family. Her father was in charge of the railway system in Siegen, in north western Germany. They built a large house. They were the first ones to have central heating, gas, and electricity. I remember that house very well since I often spent summer vacations there.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did your houses always have electricity? </p>
+
Did your houses always have electricity?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. We lived in an apartment in Bad Kreuznach where there was initially no electricity. </p>
+
No. We lived in an apartment in Bad Kreuznach where there was initially no electricity.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Is that right! </p>
+
Is that right!  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I remember very well. First we had kerosene or oil lamps, and then we had gas lamps. Electricity had not reached the small cities yet. By that time the majority of apartments in larger cities had electricity. </p>
+
I remember very well. First we had kerosene or oil lamps, and then we had gas lamps. Electricity had not reached the small cities yet. By that time the majority of apartments in larger cities had electricity.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you have siblings? </p>
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Did you have siblings?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. I was the only child. </p>
+
No. I was the only child.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did your father teach at a gymnasium in Dusseldorf? </p>
+
Did your father teach at a gymnasium in Dusseldorf?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. He taught mathematics and physics. </p>
+
Yes. He taught mathematics and physics.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You wrote that in the early 'thirties your father lost a position because of his political views. </p>
+
You wrote that in the early 'thirties your father lost a position because of his political views.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That is correct. </p>
+
That is correct.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
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'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you explain that? </p>
+
Can you explain that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>By 1933 the Nazis had established a law to recreate the proper ethics in the democracy and officialdom. They used that as a tool to weed out all those that ideologically did not agree with them. It was one of a large series of laws which the Nazis enacted against Jews, against liberals, and against whoever did not agree with their politics. My father was put in "retirement," forcible retirement. They couldn't fire people. He had tenure as a teacher, essentially. He was well known as a teacher, and as a scientist, as I mentioned before. "Retirement" was very difficult for him since he was so young . He was in his early forties when the Nazis forced him out of his job. His retirement benefits accounted for a little more than twenty-five percent of his regular salary. That started a period of great poverty for us as a family, of course, and he couldn't find any other employment. </p>
+
By 1933 the Nazis had established a law to recreate the proper ethics in the democracy and officialdom. They used that as a tool to weed out all those that ideologically did not agree with them. It was one of a large series of laws which the Nazis enacted against Jews, against liberals, and against whoever did not agree with their politics. My father was put in "retirement," forcible retirement. They couldn't fire people. He had tenure as a teacher, essentially. He was well known as a teacher, and as a scientist, as I mentioned before. "Retirement" was very difficult for him since he was so young . He was in his early forties when the Nazis forced him out of his job. His retirement benefits accounted for a little more than twenty-five percent of his regular salary. That started a period of great poverty for us as a family, of course, and he couldn't find any other employment.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What were his political views in particular? Had he been active politically? </p>
+
What were his political views in particular? Had he been active politically?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>He had not been particularly active in organizations. He always voted Social Democratic. The Social Democrats was the strongest party in Germany. Their orientation was quite similar to the Labor Party in England and the Democrats in this country. As in most developed nations, the Labor Party, the Social Democrats, and the Democrats have similar orientations. But he was very outspoken, and in school his views were very well known. He was very critical of the emerging Nazi Party and the nationalistic movement in Germany. To a degree the nationalistic movement led to the demise of Germany in the First World War. He was very bitter about the First World War, which, in effect, brought the Nationalists to power in Germany in 1933. He took part in the opposition and put time into it. </p>
+
He had not been particularly active in organizations. He always voted Social Democratic. The Social Democrats was the strongest party in Germany. Their orientation was quite similar to the Labor Party in England and the Democrats in this country. As in most developed nations, the Labor Party, the Social Democrats, and the Democrats have similar orientations. But he was very outspoken, and in school his views were very well known. He was very critical of the emerging Nazi Party and the nationalistic movement in Germany. To a degree the nationalistic movement led to the demise of Germany in the First World War. He was very bitter about the First World War, which, in effect, brought the Nationalists to power in Germany in 1933. He took part in the opposition and put time into it.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were three years old when World War I ended? </p>
+
You were three years old when World War I ended?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I know the economic conditions in Germany were extremely difficult immediately after the war and for some years later. Did that have a noticeable effect on your upbringing, or was your family well enough off? </p>
+
I know the economic conditions in Germany were extremely difficult immediately after the war and for some years later. Did that have a noticeable effect on your upbringing, or was your family well enough off?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. I certainly was undernourished as a baby. Food supplies were very restricted in Germany, of course, at the time. We suffered from that. Right after the First World War, the situation got worse instead of better. A few years later, we experienced tremendous inflation, where we purchased with billion mark notes. The standard of living was low. Even so, we enjoyed a level of security. My father was a good teacher. He had excellent training, and, until 1933, he had a secure position. At least there was regular income. We didn't suffer as much as many other people. From 'twenty-four to the time when the Nazis took over, Germany enjoyed a good economic period where income was rather good, and we enjoyed a relatively high standard of living as well. The years from 1926 to 1930 were particularly good. I like to think of that Germany.<ref>It was probably unsurpassed in scientific and cultural activities. Many of the most famous mathematicians and physicists were there, pushing the development of relativity and quantum mechanics. Expressionism was extremely well represented by many famous painters, and music was equally good. Its foreign policies improved rapidly, in good part due to the long service of Stresemann, an excellent man to head foreign affairs. A number of treaties with the Western nations reduced significantly the burden imposed on Germany by the Versailles peace treaty, and Germany became accepted in the League of Nations. Clearly, Germany was well on its way back to becoming again a highly regarded member of the international community.</ref> Then of course in 'thirty, the big depression came. We had just a few relatively good years between the inflation and the depression. We were all right until my father got released from his job. </p>
+
No. I certainly was undernourished as a baby. Food supplies were very restricted in Germany, of course, at the time. We suffered from that. Right after the First World War, the situation got worse instead of better. A few years later, we experienced tremendous inflation, where we purchased with billion mark notes. The standard of living was low. Even so, we enjoyed a level of security. My father was a good teacher. He had excellent training, and, until 1933, he had a secure position. At least there was regular income. We didn't suffer as much as many other people. From 'twenty-four to the time when the Nazis took over, Germany enjoyed a good economic period where income was rather good, and we enjoyed a relatively high standard of living as well. The years from 1926 to 1930 were particularly good. I like to think of that Germany.<ref>It was probably unsurpassed in scientific and cultural activities. Many of the most famous mathematicians and physicists were there, pushing the development of relativity and quantum mechanics. Expressionism was extremely well represented by many famous painters, and music was equally good. Its foreign policies improved rapidly, in good part due to the long service of Stresemann, an excellent man to head foreign affairs. A number of treaties with the Western nations reduced significantly the burden imposed on Germany by the Versailles peace treaty, and Germany became accepted in the League of Nations. Clearly, Germany was well on its way back to becoming again a highly regarded member of the international community.</ref> Then of course in 'thirty, the big depression came. We had just a few relatively good years between the inflation and the depression. We were all right until my father got released from his job.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was your father's subsequent career? </p>
+
What was your father's subsequent career?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>He never had another job. He lived rather meagerly. During the war he moved to Austria, where he felt safer from the bombings. But then after the Second World War, when Austria was again separated from Germany, he moved back to Hannoe-Munden near Göttingen; and there he died. Late in his years, when he was about sixty, after the Second World War, he wrote five scientific papers which got published in mathematical journals in Germany. But his creativity was almost wiped out in the depressed period which followed his forcible retirement. </p>
+
He never had another job. He lived rather meagerly. During the war he moved to Austria, where he felt safer from the bombings. But then after the Second World War, when Austria was again separated from Germany, he moved back to Hannoe-Munden near Göttingen; and there he died. Late in his years, when he was about sixty, after the Second World War, he wrote five scientific papers which got published in mathematical journals in Germany. But his creativity was almost wiped out in the depressed period which followed his forcible retirement.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Do you think that was entirely a result of the Nazi persecution? </p>
+
Do you think that was entirely a result of the Nazi persecution?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>He suffered very much from that. He was very bitter, very disillusioned. He was depressed and had periods where he was close to insanity. Sometimes when he walked through the apartment, he knocked on the walls, suspecting that the Gestapo had hidden microphones there. For people who were not politically accepted, the pressure was very great in that system; there were fearful excesses. </p>
+
He suffered very much from that. He was very bitter, very disillusioned. He was depressed and had periods where he was close to insanity. Sometimes when he walked through the apartment, he knocked on the walls, suspecting that the Gestapo had hidden microphones there. For people who were not politically accepted, the pressure was very great in that system; there were fearful excesses.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was your father was forcibly retired from his position at Bad Kreuznach? </p>
+
Was your father was forcibly retired from his position at Bad Kreuznach?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No, that was after Dusseldorf (in 1934). At Dusseldorf he was again transferred to a city quite close to Berlin — and there it hit him. </p>
+
No, that was after Dusseldorf (in 1934). At Dusseldorf he was again transferred to a city quite close to Berlin — and there it hit him.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That was also the year, that you completed gymnasium? </p>
+
That was also the year, that you completed gymnasium?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>In Göttingen, yes. My father was temporarily living in Göttingen. He decided that my mother would stay there. My father felt that I should attend high school in Göttingen. As a mathematician he was aware of the reputation of the school in Göttingen. .Hermann Weyl's sons attended my high school. One was in the class above me; the other son was the class below me. </p>
+
In Göttingen, yes. My father was temporarily living in Göttingen. He decided that my mother would stay there. My father felt that I should attend high school in Göttingen. As a mathematician he was aware of the reputation of the school in Göttingen. .Hermann Weyl's sons attended my high school. One was in the class above me; the other son was the class below me.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you know the Weyls moved to Princeton? </p>
+
Did you know the Weyls moved to Princeton?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Max Born and Courant's children attended the same school. We were all about the same age. </p>
+
Yes. Max Born and Courant's children attended the same school. We were all about the same age.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I can certainly understand the decision to go to high school there in Göttingen. Was the move to Göttingen expressly for that purpose? </p>
+
I can certainly understand the decision to go to high school there in Göttingen. Was the move to Göttingen expressly for that purpose?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>My parents had separated. It was my father's wish that my mother should move to Göttingen so that I could receive a good education. The Göttingen years were very important to me. I had an excellent school with excellent teachers. It was a very intellectual environment with good teachers. The school was one of the strong influences in my lifetime. </p>
+
My parents had separated. It was my father's wish that my mother should move to Göttingen so that I could receive a good education. The Göttingen years were very important to me. I had an excellent school with excellent teachers. It was a very intellectual environment with good teachers. The school was one of the strong influences in my lifetime.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What were your early intellectual interests? </p>
+
What were your early intellectual interests?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>In grade school, I had quite a lot of interests. I would say it became apparent by the age of about ten that mathematics and physics were easy for me. That continued through high school and university where I studied physics and mathematics. But I developed many other interests. I took many history classes. I developed a special interest in ancient Greek and Egyptian history. I read profusely about World War I also. I was very much interested in the distribution of responsibilities of various nations leading to World War I. </p>
+
In grade school, I had quite a lot of interests. I would say it became apparent by the age of about ten that mathematics and physics were easy for me. That continued through high school and university where I studied physics and mathematics. But I developed many other interests. I took many history classes. I developed a special interest in ancient Greek and Egyptian history. I read profusely about World War I also. I was very much interested in the distribution of responsibilities of various nations leading to World War I.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Outside of math and science, history may have been your strongest? </p>
+
Outside of math and science, history may have been your strongest?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I was also interested in art history and in my own painting. I was fairly active in sports and I also build many radio sets. </p>
+
Yes. I was also interested in art history and in my own painting. I was fairly active in sports and I also build many radio sets.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you play soccer? </p>
+
Did you play soccer?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I did not play much soccer. I was active in running, swimming, jumping. I did lots of hiking, and table tennis. </p>
+
I did not play much soccer. I was active in running, swimming, jumping. I did lots of hiking, and table tennis.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was your father a very strong influence on you? </p>
+
Was your father a very strong influence on you?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. My father maintained contact with me through my studies. While I studied in Göttingen, I took two detailed term courses in the theory of functions. The theory of functions was at that time taught by a man who was named Herglotz. Herglotz was very famous and considered the leading mathematician in the theory of functions. He held a special seminar on a related topic. I talked with my father about this, and my father said, "I think I can describe it for you better." [Laughter.] A short while later he sent me a big manuscript on that same topic. It was dedicated "pater-filio," from father to son. He did it very beautifully indeed. I still have it. </p>
+
Yes. My father maintained contact with me through my studies. While I studied in Göttingen, I took two detailed term courses in the theory of functions. The theory of functions was at that time taught by a man who was named Herglotz. Herglotz was very famous and considered the leading mathematician in the theory of functions. He held a special seminar on a related topic. I talked with my father about this, and my father said, "I think I can describe it for you better." [Laughter.] A short while later he sent me a big manuscript on that same topic. It was dedicated "pater-filio," from father to son. He did it very beautifully indeed. I still have it.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When did your parents separate? </p>
+
When did your parents separate?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>In 1930. </p>
+
In 1930.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You lived with your mother thereafter? </p>
+
You lived with your mother thereafter?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>In Göttingen, yes. </p>
+
In Göttingen, yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were fifteen years old in 1930? </p>
+
You were fifteen years old in 1930?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did your father work with you on mathematics or physics? </p>
+
Did your father work with you on mathematics or physics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>School had a primary influence on me. When I was younger, he was not very much interested. I don't have memories that he spent lots of time with me. I think he spent more time sitting in his study and working on his manuscripts, on his book. The first time that he took a strong interest was while I was in high school, when it became apparent that I was mathematically above average. I was one of two in the class who had been elected to write a special thesis. People who could do that successfully were exempted from the final examination which you had to take for the high school diploma in mathematics. I wrote a thesis which was some eighty pages long where I attempted to translate plane geometry, as written originally by Euclides to geometry of the sphere. I derived a number of things which impressed the high school teachers and my father. After that I met with my father fairly frequently. </p>
+
School had a primary influence on me. When I was younger, he was not very much interested. I don't have memories that he spent lots of time with me. I think he spent more time sitting in his study and working on his manuscripts, on his book. The first time that he took a strong interest was while I was in high school, when it became apparent that I was mathematically above average. I was one of two in the class who had been elected to write a special thesis. People who could do that successfully were exempted from the final examination which you had to take for the high school diploma in mathematics. I wrote a thesis which was some eighty pages long where I attempted to translate plane geometry, as written originally by Euclides to geometry of the sphere. I derived a number of things which impressed the high school teachers and my father. After that I met with my father fairly frequently.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You completed gymnasium in 'thirty-four? </p>
+
You completed gymnasium in 'thirty-four?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How many years did you attend? </p>
+
How many years did you attend?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I was in Göttingen four years in high school. </p>
+
I was in Göttingen four years in high school.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was that usual? </p>
+
Was that usual?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I came in 'thirty. On Easter 'thirty-four, at the age of nineteen I got my high school diploma. I graduated with honors. It was one year after the Nazis had come to power. They came to power in January 'thirty-three. As a matter of fact, I was rather good in a number of subjects. I received As in history, in German, in physics, and in math and some other subjects. I was one of three in the class who made it Summa Cum Laude. In fact, and to indicate the level of excellence of the school, our class was the only one in about twenty years where three had gotten the very highest honors. Later on, when I visited Germany, I visited my old math teacher. He told me that he never had as good a class as the one I was in. </p>
+
Yes. I came in 'thirty. On Easter 'thirty-four, at the age of nineteen I got my high school diploma. I graduated with honors. It was one year after the Nazis had come to power. They came to power in January 'thirty-three. As a matter of fact, I was rather good in a number of subjects. I received As in history, in German, in physics, and in math and some other subjects. I was one of three in the class who made it Summa Cum Laude. In fact, and to indicate the level of excellence of the school, our class was the only one in about twenty years where three had gotten the very highest honors. Later on, when I visited Germany, I visited my old math teacher. He told me that he never had as good a class as the one I was in.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Those were good years for you? </p>
+
Those were good years for you?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, very much so. </p>
+
Yes, very much so.  
  
 
=== Opposition to Nazis and the ''Arbeitsdienst''  ===
 
=== Opposition to Nazis and the ''Arbeitsdienst''  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You stayed on in Göttingen at the university after you completed gymnasium? </p>
+
You stayed on in Göttingen at the university after you completed gymnasium?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Well, with interruptions. I got my high school diploma with distinction. But the Nazis had established a rule whereby you could only study if you a) had a high school diploma, and b) had a certificate of being politically correct — political maturity, as they called it. Who judged political maturity? The Nazi representative of the school. I didn't get it. One of the two other ones who graduated with distinction, also didn't get it. [Laughter.] Can you imagine that? So we could not study. </p>
+
Yes. Well, with interruptions. I got my high school diploma with distinction. But the Nazis had established a rule whereby you could only study if you a) had a high school diploma, and b) had a certificate of being politically correct — political maturity, as they called it. Who judged political maturity? The Nazi representative of the school. I didn't get it. One of the two other ones who graduated with distinction, also didn't get it. [Laughter.] Can you imagine that? So we could not study.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How was political maturity determined? Did the person granting these certificates know you personally? </p>
+
How was political maturity determined? Did the person granting these certificates know you personally?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I don't know how it was determined. The decision was made by a group of people who had been appointed by the Party. They included some of the teachers who were selected from the total group of teachers for their pro-Nazi political views. Most teachers of course had gotten an idea about our political views from our discussions about history, our discussions in German and things like that. It was that mechanism which led to our downfall. The Nazis had also established an ''Arbeitsdienst'', the Working Service. At that time the Working Service was still voluntary. A couple of years later it became mandatory. Those people who hadn't gotten a certificate of political maturity could prove themselves, perhaps, by entering this Working Service. My friend and myself did just that. After I'd gotten my high school diploma, I went into the Working Service. But I became sick in the Working Service. </p>
+
I don't know how it was determined. The decision was made by a group of people who had been appointed by the Party. They included some of the teachers who were selected from the total group of teachers for their pro-Nazi political views. Most teachers of course had gotten an idea about our political views from our discussions about history, our discussions in German and things like that. It was that mechanism which led to our downfall. The Nazis had also established an ''Arbeitsdienst'', the Working Service. At that time the Working Service was still voluntary. A couple of years later it became mandatory. Those people who hadn't gotten a certificate of political maturity could prove themselves, perhaps, by entering this Working Service. My friend and myself did just that. After I'd gotten my high school diploma, I went into the Working Service. But I became sick in the Working Service.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What sort of work did you do? </p>
+
What sort of work did you do?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I ended up in a sort of slave labor camp. I could hardly believe it. I'll tell you a typical day. It was unbelievable! We got up at four in the morning to exercise and sing patriotic songs and so on. Then we had to march for about an hour to a certain location where we built an airfield which became a Stuka base in Germany. We arrived there between six and seven in the morning and we worked until about two in the afternoon. </p>
+
I ended up in a sort of slave labor camp. I could hardly believe it. I'll tell you a typical day. It was unbelievable! We got up at four in the morning to exercise and sing patriotic songs and so on. Then we had to march for about an hour to a certain location where we built an airfield which became a Stuka base in Germany. We arrived there between six and seven in the morning and we worked until about two in the afternoon.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You worked on building this airfield? </p>
+
You worked on building this airfield?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Our activity at that time was just leveling ground. We dug up and put earth into lorries which we had then to push to another site. We shoveled up ground, loaded lorries up, transported them, and unloaded them. It was a very demanding job. We were supervised. Typically we worked in teams of two. We had to load up the lorry within twenty five minutes and transport it and back. At about three, three-thirty, I think, we moved back to the camp to clean up. Twenty minutes later we met again, and we were marched out for military exercises — or pretend military exercises. There was a guy who shouted, "Airplanes!" We had to throw ourselves on the ground and in ditches. That lasted for two hours. After the military exercises we had our evening food. From eight to ten, we had political indoctrination, where the camp leaders, and other Nazis, gave patriotic speeches — our great Führer — and so on. From ten to four we could sleep. Then came the next day. </p>
+
Our activity at that time was just leveling ground. We dug up and put earth into lorries which we had then to push to another site. We shoveled up ground, loaded lorries up, transported them, and unloaded them. It was a very demanding job. We were supervised. Typically we worked in teams of two. We had to load up the lorry within twenty five minutes and transport it and back. At about three, three-thirty, I think, we moved back to the camp to clean up. Twenty minutes later we met again, and we were marched out for military exercises — or pretend military exercises. There was a guy who shouted, "Airplanes!" We had to throw ourselves on the ground and in ditches. That lasted for two hours. After the military exercises we had our evening food. From eight to ten, we had political indoctrination, where the camp leaders, and other Nazis, gave patriotic speeches — our great Führer — and so on. From ten to four we could sleep. Then came the next day.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How many of the young people there supported the Nazis? </p>
+
How many of the young people there supported the Nazis?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>A majority. My class was an exception. My class, it was called the "anti-Nazi" group. Usually, most of them became Nazis. It's very interesting how that happened. It was due to the propaganda, I would say. In the last elections prior to Hitler's becoming Chancellor of Germany in 1932, the Nazis commanded about one-third. They were the strongest party, but they represented only one-third of the population. Two thirds of the population were either very skeptical or very, very negative. Once the Nazis activated the propaganda machine completely including the press, and the radio, the people fell in line within a few years. </p>
+
A majority. My class was an exception. My class, it was called the "anti-Nazi" group. Usually, most of them became Nazis. It's very interesting how that happened. It was due to the propaganda, I would say. In the last elections prior to Hitler's becoming Chancellor of Germany in 1932, the Nazis commanded about one-third. They were the strongest party, but they represented only one-third of the population. Two thirds of the population were either very skeptical or very, very negative. Once the Nazis activated the propaganda machine completely including the press, and the radio, the people fell in line within a few years.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You noticed that? You could see that? </p>
+
You noticed that? You could see that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I never could determine to my satisfaction the precise level of people who remained skeptical about the system. Based on what I sensed people really thought, not what they pretended to think, my best estimate is between five and twenty percent remained skeptical. We developed a sensitivity for that in the system after a while. </p>
+
Yes. I never could determine to my satisfaction the precise level of people who remained skeptical about the system. Based on what I sensed people really thought, not what they pretended to think, my best estimate is between five and twenty percent remained skeptical. We developed a sensitivity for that in the system after a while.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You remained skeptical of the Nazis? </p>
+
You remained skeptical of the Nazis?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I was very bitter about my father's treatment. I was very skeptical about the Nazis. I remember my mother was also very negative. I remember when Hitler was appointed, the thirtieth of January, and the radios reported the big celebration, my mother was weeping. She said, "Herman, it means the decline of Germany. It surely will lead to war when Germany will be again, this time, utterly destroyed." How prophetic her words were. She was convinced the Nazi government would lead to war, and it became apparent to me that it had to lead to war. A few years later when Hitler marched to the Rhineland, I was surprised that the French didn't counterattack right away. </p>
+
I was very bitter about my father's treatment. I was very skeptical about the Nazis. I remember my mother was also very negative. I remember when Hitler was appointed, the thirtieth of January, and the radios reported the big celebration, my mother was weeping. She said, "Herman, it means the decline of Germany. It surely will lead to war when Germany will be again, this time, utterly destroyed." How prophetic her words were. She was convinced the Nazi government would lead to war, and it became apparent to me that it had to lead to war. A few years later when Hitler marched to the Rhineland, I was surprised that the French didn't counterattack right away.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was there a feeling that the working service was military training? Did people feel that they were really being trained as soldiers? </p>
+
Was there a feeling that the working service was military training? Did people feel that they were really being trained as soldiers?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The people at the camp included people who were practically forced to enter in it, like myself; unemployed people; and people who the Nazis had threatened to punish as criminals. The people were not especially violent. I became rapidly sick. I suffered from heart problems. I just couldn't take that physical punishment. I was relieved after a few months, and they permitted me to study. The camp doctor clearly recognized I couldn't stand it. I developed heart murmurs. I had a pulse of 200 when I went up a few steps. So they let me go. </p>
+
The people at the camp included people who were practically forced to enter in it, like myself; unemployed people; and people who the Nazis had threatened to punish as criminals. The people were not especially violent. I became rapidly sick. I suffered from heart problems. I just couldn't take that physical punishment. I was relieved after a few months, and they permitted me to study. The camp doctor clearly recognized I couldn't stand it. I developed heart murmurs. I had a pulse of 200 when I went up a few steps. So they let me go.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>And gave you this political maturity certificate? </p>
+
And gave you this political maturity certificate?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>And I got my certificate of political maturity. [Chuckling.] </p>
+
And I got my certificate of political maturity. [Chuckling.]  
  
 
=== University Education and Hardships  ===
 
=== University Education and Hardships  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You worked through the summer of 'thirty-four? </p>
+
You worked through the summer of 'thirty-four?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Effectively, I lost almost a year of study. You know, certain courses such as calculus start at particular times. I wanted to study in Göttingen. I had maintained very close contact with my high school mathematics teacher, and he advised me not to do so. For financial reasons I needed tuition scholarships. And my high school teacher advised me that I couldn't get into Göttingen. He told me that the student organization at the university was aware of my political views. In spite of the Working Service, I had not a chance whatsoever to get any tuition release. My high school teacher also had contacts with Frankfurt. He had worked closely with a Jewish mathematics professor in Frankfurt named Hellinger. Together they edited and published several volumes of the collected works of Felix Klein. Felix Klein was an outstanding mathematician, and the most famous one prior to Hilbert. My high school teacher talked to the Frankfurt people. The Frankfurt people, of course, knew my father very well and encouraged me to come to Frankfurt. I got a scholarship easily through the university. </p>
+
Effectively, I lost almost a year of study. You know, certain courses such as calculus start at particular times. I wanted to study in Göttingen. I had maintained very close contact with my high school mathematics teacher, and he advised me not to do so. For financial reasons I needed tuition scholarships. And my high school teacher advised me that I couldn't get into Göttingen. He told me that the student organization at the university was aware of my political views. In spite of the Working Service, I had not a chance whatsoever to get any tuition release. My high school teacher also had contacts with Frankfurt. He had worked closely with a Jewish mathematics professor in Frankfurt named Hellinger. Together they edited and published several volumes of the collected works of Felix Klein. Felix Klein was an outstanding mathematician, and the most famous one prior to Hilbert. My high school teacher talked to the Frankfurt people. The Frankfurt people, of course, knew my father very well and encouraged me to come to Frankfurt. I got a scholarship easily through the university.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you have to declare a major in mathematics or physics? </p>
+
Did you have to declare a major in mathematics or physics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. I started to study mathematics and physics, the standard curriculum of math courses, physics, physics lab, and chemistry. I clearly wanted to go into one of those fields. I was one year in Frankfurt. When in the second year it became apparent that I couldn't get tuition release in Frankfurt anymore, I moved back to Göttingen where my mother still lived. In Frankfurt I studied very well. The professors noted me fairly rapidly. But I suffered. In order to get my tuition release I had entered a so-called Comradeship House, which turned out to be, again, a Nazi-dominated outfit. I fell in disgrace, unfortunately, fairly rapidly with the people in the so-called Comradeship House. It must have been that I was not too careful about expressing myself politically, even though I tried to be careful. It became known that I was invited to Sunday dinners several times by some of my professors who were Jewish. I interacted with them, of course, strongly. </p>
+
No. I started to study mathematics and physics, the standard curriculum of math courses, physics, physics lab, and chemistry. I clearly wanted to go into one of those fields. I was one year in Frankfurt. When in the second year it became apparent that I couldn't get tuition release in Frankfurt anymore, I moved back to Göttingen where my mother still lived. In Frankfurt I studied very well. The professors noted me fairly rapidly. But I suffered. In order to get my tuition release I had entered a so-called Comradeship House, which turned out to be, again, a Nazi-dominated outfit. I fell in disgrace, unfortunately, fairly rapidly with the people in the so-called Comradeship House. It must have been that I was not too careful about expressing myself politically, even though I tried to be careful. It became known that I was invited to Sunday dinners several times by some of my professors who were Jewish. I interacted with them, of course, strongly.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did the other students avoid the Jewish professors? </p>
+
Did the other students avoid the Jewish professors?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I wouldn't say so. It just happened that I was the best in my class. When they asked a question of the class, I raised my hand first. I did some things which others didn't. For example, sometimes before class started when the blackboards were all dirty, I wiped them clean before the professor came. Well, they called me "Der Jüden Jüngling." How can I translate that? It means "the Jew boy." I became known as a Jew Boy. One night they beat me up. It was a gruesome experience which led again to my heart deficiencies. I was surrounded by a blanket or sack, and they beat on me with sticks, and on the floor alone. It was an awful experience. I was deep in sleep when it started. It was one of the most miserable things in my life I remember. In the morning I had all sorts of heart problems. I was permitted to leave the Comradeship House. That meant the next year I couldn't get anymore free tuition. It was the same story again. I moved back to Göttingen then, where I studied the second year. </p>
+
I wouldn't say so. It just happened that I was the best in my class. When they asked a question of the class, I raised my hand first. I did some things which others didn't. For example, sometimes before class started when the blackboards were all dirty, I wiped them clean before the professor came. Well, they called me "Der Jüden Jüngling." How can I translate that? It means "the Jew boy." I became known as a Jew Boy. One night they beat me up. It was a gruesome experience which led again to my heart deficiencies. I was surrounded by a blanket or sack, and they beat on me with sticks, and on the floor alone. It was an awful experience. I was deep in sleep when it started. It was one of the most miserable things in my life I remember. In the morning I had all sorts of heart problems. I was permitted to leave the Comradeship House. That meant the next year I couldn't get anymore free tuition. It was the same story again. I moved back to Göttingen then, where I studied the second year.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you able to get a tuition release there? </p>
+
Were you able to get a tuition release there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. Somehow my mother and I saved as much as we could and we borrowed money. After one year our money was all gone. There was no chance for me to continue in Göttingen. Nonetheless, a very productive year. I took very interesting courses. There were still a number of good mathematicians in Göttingen. But even so, the drain of the good professors from Germany was great. Herman Weyl had gone to Princeton, and many other professors, of course, had left Germany. Courant went to New York. Most of the famous Göttingen crowd had left except for the very old Hilbert. I tried one more thing to continue my studies. I moved to Breslau in East Germany which is in Silesia, close to Poland. The Nazis tried to encourage youngsters to study in either Danzig, Breslau or at another east German university. It was their beginning of orienting Germany towards the east and taking back from Poland what they had had. </p>
+
No. Somehow my mother and I saved as much as we could and we borrowed money. After one year our money was all gone. There was no chance for me to continue in Göttingen. Nonetheless, a very productive year. I took very interesting courses. There were still a number of good mathematicians in Göttingen. But even so, the drain of the good professors from Germany was great. Herman Weyl had gone to Princeton, and many other professors, of course, had left Germany. Courant went to New York. Most of the famous Göttingen crowd had left except for the very old Hilbert. I tried one more thing to continue my studies. I moved to Breslau in East Germany which is in Silesia, close to Poland. The Nazis tried to encourage youngsters to study in either Danzig, Breslau or at another east German university. It was their beginning of orienting Germany towards the east and taking back from Poland what they had had.  
  
<p>It became pretty obvious that it was easier to get a scholarship in Breslau than in the West. I went to Breslau, enrolled there, and took some time to see if I could get a scholarship. I didn't get one. I studied there one semester. At the end of the semester, my money was gone. I remember there was a period of time in Breslau when I was at home, sick. I had a vicious flu. I hadn't paid rent for two months. The owner of the apartment was threatening to evict me from the room I rented there. I was thrown out of the university for not paying tuition. I had nothing! At that time a friend of mine, a French student, loaned me several hundred marks, which was a great amount of money. </p>
+
It became pretty obvious that it was easier to get a scholarship in Breslau than in the West. I went to Breslau, enrolled there, and took some time to see if I could get a scholarship. I didn't get one. I studied there one semester. At the end of the semester, my money was gone. I remember there was a period of time in Breslau when I was at home, sick. I had a vicious flu. I hadn't paid rent for two months. The owner of the apartment was threatening to evict me from the room I rented there. I was thrown out of the university for not paying tuition. I had nothing! At that time a friend of mine, a French student, loaned me several hundred marks, which was a great amount of money.  
  
 
=== Siemens and Telefunken  ===
 
=== Siemens and Telefunken  ===
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I applied again for a job in Berlin as an engineer. I had already accumulated a lot of knowledge in engineering, physics, and math. During the previous summer I got a job with Siemens. That was my first job in Berlin. And I worked for nearly half a year at Siemens, thereby saving some money. </p>
+
I applied again for a job in Berlin as an engineer. I had already accumulated a lot of knowledge in engineering, physics, and math. During the previous summer I got a job with Siemens. That was my first job in Berlin. And I worked for nearly half a year at Siemens, thereby saving some money.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>At which branch of Siemens did you work? </p>
+
At which branch of Siemens did you work?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I worked at Siemens and Halske, which was the more electronic part of the company. </p>
+
I worked at Siemens and Halske, which was the more electronic part of the company.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What were they working on there? </p>
+
What were they working on there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I was involved in a project developing instruments that measured humidity of grain by electric techniques. They had a wide range of products and measuring instruments such as voltmeters, ammeters, and simple impedance meters. </p>
+
I was involved in a project developing instruments that measured humidity of grain by electric techniques. They had a wide range of products and measuring instruments such as voltmeters, ammeters, and simple impedance meters.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You worked at Siemens and Halske in Berlin? </p>
+
You worked at Siemens and Halske in Berlin?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Let me clarify my timetable. I lived one year in Frankfurt, then I stayed one year in Göttingen. When that year was over, I decided to work during the summer. During that summer I applied to Breslau and worked at Siemens. While I was in Göttingen I had decided, in view of our catastrophic situation, to work during the summer periods. During the winter semester, I went to Breslau. When things broke up there, I went to Telefunken. </p>
+
Yes. Let me clarify my timetable. I lived one year in Frankfurt, then I stayed one year in Göttingen. When that year was over, I decided to work during the summer. During that summer I applied to Breslau and worked at Siemens. While I was in Göttingen I had decided, in view of our catastrophic situation, to work during the summer periods. During the winter semester, I went to Breslau. When things broke up there, I went to Telefunken.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was Telefunken also in Berlin? </p>
+
Was Telefunken also in Berlin?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, also in Berlin. </p>
+
Yes, also in Berlin.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Is that a branch of Siemens? </p>
+
Is that a branch of Siemens?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Telefunken had been founded after the First World War by Siemens and A.E.G. They combined their high frequency interests in Telefunken. During the first six months I was there one of my first jobs was testing and evaluating commercial receivers. Telefunken had purchased a commercial receiver from R.C.A. My task was to evaluate technology. It was a step-by-step process, from the last amplifier all the way to the tuning circuits. I compared that R.C.A. receiver with Telefunken's related products. I issued my findings in a report. That was an interesting task, by the way. </p>
+
Telefunken had been founded after the First World War by Siemens and A.E.G. They combined their high frequency interests in Telefunken. During the first six months I was there one of my first jobs was testing and evaluating commercial receivers. Telefunken had purchased a commercial receiver from R.C.A. My task was to evaluate technology. It was a step-by-step process, from the last amplifier all the way to the tuning circuits. I compared that R.C.A. receiver with Telefunken's related products. I issued my findings in a report. That was an interesting task, by the way.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You examined things like sensitivity and fidelity? </p>
+
You examined things like sensitivity and fidelity?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Precisely. I examined tuned circuits and all that sort of stuff. Yes. </p>
+
Precisely. I examined tuned circuits and all that sort of stuff. Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was Telefunken ahead of, or abreast, or behind U.S. technology in radio receivers at that time? </p>
+
Was Telefunken ahead of, or abreast, or behind U.S. technology in radio receivers at that time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That's difficult to say. In some areas Telefunken was ahead. In some areas they were behind. It's a mix as far as I could judge. I had forgotten to mention my high school interests, which helped me very much in finding jobs at Siemens and Telefunken. Since my young days, I was very interested in operating radio and making radio sets. I had picked up some knowledge of relevant technologies. During my studies I had taken a number of engineering courses, including applied physics. I was very interested in engineering. Telefunken added very much to my technical competence. </p>
+
That's difficult to say. In some areas Telefunken was ahead. In some areas they were behind. It's a mix as far as I could judge. I had forgotten to mention my high school interests, which helped me very much in finding jobs at Siemens and Telefunken. Since my young days, I was very interested in operating radio and making radio sets. I had picked up some knowledge of relevant technologies. During my studies I had taken a number of engineering courses, including applied physics. I was very interested in engineering. Telefunken added very much to my technical competence.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was it difficult to get jobs at Siemens and Telefunken? </p>
+
Was it difficult to get jobs at Siemens and Telefunken?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>While I was miserable in Breslau, I applied to three companies. I had to wait. Two turned me down, but Telefunken took me. Telefunken had a record of my work and I got the job. The first month I worked on broad band receivers, things like that. Subsequently I got access to their microwave laboratory. That was very interesting. </p>
+
While I was miserable in Breslau, I applied to three companies. I had to wait. Two turned me down, but Telefunken took me. Telefunken had a record of my work and I got the job. The first month I worked on broad band receivers, things like that. Subsequently I got access to their microwave laboratory. That was very interesting.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You worked for how long in the radio test field? </p>
+
You worked for how long in the radio test field?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I worked in that field for about half a year. I had reluctantly given up on studying. Then something good happened. While I was at Telefunken, I met a former professor from Frankfurt, who knew me from the physics lab, in the cafeteria. He said, "What are you doing here?" I told him my story. He said, "You must continue to study. You must get your Ph.D. It's a shame." So without my knowing, he wrote to some professors in Frankfurt about me. They arranged a job for me as a technician in the Institute for Physical Foundations in Medicine. They would let me take courses, and they would — aside from the very low salary — pay my tuition. That's how I came in touch with Frankfurt. </p>
+
I worked in that field for about half a year. I had reluctantly given up on studying. Then something good happened. While I was at Telefunken, I met a former professor from Frankfurt, who knew me from the physics lab, in the cafeteria. He said, "What are you doing here?" I told him my story. He said, "You must continue to study. You must get your Ph.D. It's a shame." So without my knowing, he wrote to some professors in Frankfurt about me. They arranged a job for me as a technician in the Institute for Physical Foundations in Medicine. They would let me take courses, and they would — aside from the very low salary — pay my tuition. That's how I came in touch with Frankfurt.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>This came about from a chance meeting in the cafeteria? </p>
+
This came about from a chance meeting in the cafeteria?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>A chance meeting in the cafeteria of Telefunken, yes. </p>
+
A chance meeting in the cafeteria of Telefunken, yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How long did you work in microwaves with Telefunken? </p>
+
How long did you work in microwaves with Telefunken?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That happened later. I first started in Frankfurt in October 1937. I had arranged with the Director of the institute in Frankfurt that I would be permitted to get the next summertime free, in Berlin. I liked my work at Telefunken very much. It was during that summer 1938 that I worked in their high-frequency, very high-frequency, laboratory. They were working primarily on transmission lines. They made Smith charts and diagrammed and measured with coaxial measuring systems. I got quite familiar with relevant very high-frequency technology. As a sideline I learned about magnetron development. I believe the magnetron was discovered in England. The people at Telefunken were very interested in it. </p>
+
That happened later. I first started in Frankfurt in October 1937. I had arranged with the Director of the institute in Frankfurt that I would be permitted to get the next summertime free, in Berlin. I liked my work at Telefunken very much. It was during that summer 1938 that I worked in their high-frequency, very high-frequency, laboratory. They were working primarily on transmission lines. They made Smith charts and diagrammed and measured with coaxial measuring systems. I got quite familiar with relevant very high-frequency technology. As a sideline I learned about magnetron development. I believe the magnetron was discovered in England. The people at Telefunken were very interested in it.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were they interested in this for [[Radio|radio communications]] purposes? </p>
+
Were they interested in this for [[Radio|radio communications]] purposes?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It is not quite clear. I think they were strongly interested in [[Radar|radar]] development. </p>
+
It is not quite clear. I think they were strongly interested in [[Radar|radar]] development.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>They were developing radar at Telefunken? </p>
+
They were developing radar at Telefunken?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, when the war started in 1939, the Germans developed the fairly well-known Würzburg type of equipment which operated at a wavelength of about one and one-half meters. They were operating at a rather low frequency by comparison with the 2400 megahertz which the United States used later in 'forty-three. They never made it to higher frequencies than that. They operated at lower wavelengths where, of course, resolution is not as good as it is at the higher frequencies. They developed some good [[Cavity Magnetron|magnetrons]]. It's an irony of history that a few months after the war started in 'thirty-nine the Nazis closed the Magnetron Development Laboratory since they thought it unnecessary for the war. Can you imagine that? </p>
+
Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, when the war started in 1939, the Germans developed the fairly well-known Würzburg type of equipment which operated at a wavelength of about one and one-half meters. They were operating at a rather low frequency by comparison with the 2400 megahertz which the United States used later in 'forty-three. They never made it to higher frequencies than that. They operated at lower wavelengths where, of course, resolution is not as good as it is at the higher frequencies. They developed some good [[Cavity Magnetron|magnetrons]]. It's an irony of history that a few months after the war started in 'thirty-nine the Nazis closed the Magnetron Development Laboratory since they thought it unnecessary for the war. Can you imagine that?  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Had they been developing radar for the military in Germany? </p>
+
Had they been developing radar for the military in Germany?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Nevertheless, the Nazis decided this was unnecessary? </p>
+
Nevertheless, the Nazis decided this was unnecessary?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. The Nazi leadership thought they had all the equipment they needed for what they claimed would be a very brief war. </p>
+
Yes. The Nazi leadership thought they had all the equipment they needed for what they claimed would be a very brief war.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Yes, yes. I know that a long war was not anticipated, and long-term development wasn't supported by the Nazis. </p>
+
Yes, yes. I know that a long war was not anticipated, and long-term development wasn't supported by the Nazis.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Right! The lab was reopened late in 1943 when they found modern equipment in some Allied airplanes lost over Germany. </p>
+
Right! The lab was reopened late in 1943 when they found modern equipment in some Allied airplanes lost over Germany.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>The Nazis didn't close the lab in order to move the radar experts to another location to work on it? </p>
+
The Nazis didn't close the lab in order to move the radar experts to another location to work on it?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No, no. Curiously enough, they drafted most of the people into the army. They were released a few years later on. But, of course, once you stop work for some years its difficult to pick up where you left off. It takes time to reorganize everything. </p>
+
No, no. Curiously enough, they drafted most of the people into the army. They were released a few years later on. But, of course, once you stop work for some years its difficult to pick up where you left off. It takes time to reorganize everything.  
  
 
=== Inst. for Physical Foundations in Medicine  ===
 
=== Inst. for Physical Foundations in Medicine  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>After meeting this professor in Berlin, you went to Frankfurt where you worked and studied. You came back to Berlin to work at Telefunken in high frequency the next summer, 1938? </p>
+
After meeting this professor in Berlin, you went to Frankfurt where you worked and studied. You came back to Berlin to work at Telefunken in high frequency the next summer, 1938?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Right. Yes. </p>
+
Right. Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were exempt from military service because of your medical condition? </p>
+
You were exempt from military service because of your medical condition?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Quite. </p>
+
Yes. Quite.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Otherwise, do you think you would have been drafted? </p>
+
Otherwise, do you think you would have been drafted?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, I think so. I was almost drafted in 'forty-three. My medical condition was sufficient at the beginning of the war for me to be exempt from war service. But after Stalingrad, my condition was not serious enough to exempt me from service. When the war progressed they drafted people whose conditions were not quite as serious as others. Luckily, the head of the laboratory of the institute in Frankfurt was successful in getting people exempted from military service. I had become very effective in this institute and was considered one of the rapidly developing young scientists. </p>
+
Yes, I think so. I was almost drafted in 'forty-three. My medical condition was sufficient at the beginning of the war for me to be exempt from war service. But after Stalingrad, my condition was not serious enough to exempt me from service. When the war progressed they drafted people whose conditions were not quite as serious as others. Luckily, the head of the laboratory of the institute in Frankfurt was successful in getting people exempted from military service. I had become very effective in this institute and was considered one of the rapidly developing young scientists.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>By the time you went back to Frankfurt in 1937, you didn't have any special interest in biophysics — what we now call biophysics? </p>
+
By the time you went back to Frankfurt in 1937, you didn't have any special interest in biophysics — what we now call biophysics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No, no. </p>
+
No, no.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were in medical physics? </p>
+
You were in medical physics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It is very interesting, but when I got that offer, I was skeptical about it being a reasonable job. I was aware of the complexity of biology but my primary interest had been physics, engineering, and mathematics. I could not see how physicists could contribute productively in this messy environment. </p>
+
It is very interesting, but when I got that offer, I was skeptical about it being a reasonable job. I was aware of the complexity of biology but my primary interest had been physics, engineering, and mathematics. I could not see how physicists could contribute productively in this messy environment.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You are referring to the physical basis of medicine? </p>
+
You are referring to the physical basis of medicine?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you say just a word about who was running the institute at that time? </p>
+
Can you say just a word about who was running the institute at that time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. He was a Russian man, named Rajewsky. He was one of the Russians who had left Russia after the civil war and found a job. </p>
+
Yes. He was a Russian man, named Rajewsky. He was one of the Russians who had left Russia after the civil war and found a job.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was he Jewish? </p>
+
Was he Jewish?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. </p>
+
No.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Otherwise he wouldn't have had this position? </p>
+
Otherwise he wouldn't have had this position?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Under the Nazis? Impossible. Yes, he would have been released. As a matter of fact, the man running the institute prior to him had been fired by the Nazis. It was Dessauer. Dessauer founded the institute. The institute was a foundation created by the Oswalts. The Oswalts were a prominent banking family in Frankfurt who set up a trust fund of sorts that contributed significantly to Dessauer founding that institute. </p>
+
Under the Nazis? Impossible. Yes, he would have been released. As a matter of fact, the man running the institute prior to him had been fired by the Nazis. It was Dessauer. Dessauer founded the institute. The institute was a foundation created by the Oswalts. The Oswalts were a prominent banking family in Frankfurt who set up a trust fund of sorts that contributed significantly to Dessauer founding that institute.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did people feel about the future of medical physics? </p>
+
How did people feel about the future of medical physics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Some people thought it had tremendous potential. The invention of the x-rays made a great impression on people. With these x-rays you could virtually see your bones in your hands. That was a marvel to the people at the time. Dessauer's major interest was in x-ray technology and in the mechanism of damage which x-rays cause. Dessauer was an early pioneer in the field, well known to the specialists in this country for his early contributions. Under Dessauer the institute became well known for its development of the so-called "target hit" theory. Using statistics, the theory essentially states that in order to damage a human cell, you must hit the sensitive area of the nucleus. Using statistics you could measure the extent of damage as a function of time of exposure, strength of exposure, things like that. It was much later then when I. Fricke [pointing to photo] discovered the real mechanism was radical formation. But that came later. Dessauer had to leave Germany in 1934. That was the same year that my father lost his job. </p>
+
Some people thought it had tremendous potential. The invention of the x-rays made a great impression on people. With these x-rays you could virtually see your bones in your hands. That was a marvel to the people at the time. Dessauer's major interest was in x-ray technology and in the mechanism of damage which x-rays cause. Dessauer was an early pioneer in the field, well known to the specialists in this country for his early contributions. Under Dessauer the institute became well known for its development of the so-called "target hit" theory. Using statistics, the theory essentially states that in order to damage a human cell, you must hit the sensitive area of the nucleus. Using statistics you could measure the extent of damage as a function of time of exposure, strength of exposure, things like that. It was much later then when I. Fricke [pointing to photo] discovered the real mechanism was radical formation. But that came later. Dessauer had to leave Germany in 1934. That was the same year that my father lost his job.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was Dessauer Jewish? </p>
+
Was Dessauer Jewish?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. He was not Jewish. It was again just his political views. He was outspoken, and he had been active politically. He was a member of the so-called Center Party of Germany, which represented large Catholic and democratic interests. At times he was a member of Parliament, and had campaigned heavily against the Nazis. All of those activities made it impossible for him to stay. </p>
+
No. He was not Jewish. It was again just his political views. He was outspoken, and he had been active politically. He was a member of the so-called Center Party of Germany, which represented large Catholic and democratic interests. At times he was a member of Parliament, and had campaigned heavily against the Nazis. All of those activities made it impossible for him to stay.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Rajewsky then headed the institute in Frankfurt? </p>
+
Rajewsky then headed the institute in Frankfurt?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Almost immediately after the Nazis came into power, they threw Dessauer into prison. He spent a half year in prison. When he was released at the end of the year 1933, he was forced to give up the directorship of the institute and his professorship, and he left Germany. He first went to Turkey. From Turkey Dessauer went to Freiburg, Switzerland, where he got a professorship. Later, after the war, he returned to Germany and lived in Frankfurt. I met him later when he was probably very old. Professor Rajewsky had come from Russia. He escaped from Russia into Iran when the White resistance broke up. He lived there in miserable conditions for a while. An elderly colleague and friend of his had gotten a job in the laboratories of Curie in Paris. This man, named Janitsky, pleaded with the Joliot-Curie's to do something for Rajewsky. They knew Dessauer very well, and recommended Rajewsky to him. Rajewsky became Dessauer's assistant. He rapidly emerged as a rather able assistant and scientist indeed. But he didn't share Dessauer's views. Rajewsky was an opportunist. In other words, he believed the official philosophy. Many people have thought as much. They know all too well. </p>
+
Yes. Almost immediately after the Nazis came into power, they threw Dessauer into prison. He spent a half year in prison. When he was released at the end of the year 1933, he was forced to give up the directorship of the institute and his professorship, and he left Germany. He first went to Turkey. From Turkey Dessauer went to Freiburg, Switzerland, where he got a professorship. Later, after the war, he returned to Germany and lived in Frankfurt. I met him later when he was probably very old. Professor Rajewsky had come from Russia. He escaped from Russia into Iran when the White resistance broke up. He lived there in miserable conditions for a while. An elderly colleague and friend of his had gotten a job in the laboratories of Curie in Paris. This man, named Janitsky, pleaded with the Joliot-Curie's to do something for Rajewsky. They knew Dessauer very well, and recommended Rajewsky to him. Rajewsky became Dessauer's assistant. He rapidly emerged as a rather able assistant and scientist indeed. But he didn't share Dessauer's views. Rajewsky was an opportunist. In other words, he believed the official philosophy. Many people have thought as much. They know all too well.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was he interested in the biological effect of x-rays and x-ray radiation? </p>
+
Was he interested in the biological effect of x-rays and x-ray radiation?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, yes. But he added non-ionizing radiation. He discovered this while he studied in Kiev. He was the forerunner in developing the thesis that there are non-ionizing effects of radiation, of electrical fields. He showed his thesis once to me, but I've forgotten the details. That was back when a lot of the technology was very, very poor. Aside from his interest in x-rays, he established one group in Frankfurt concerned with measuring electrical properties and he formed another group to study how the so-called diathermy technology works on people. I was added to that group as a technician. </p>
+
Yes, yes. But he added non-ionizing radiation. He discovered this while he studied in Kiev. He was the forerunner in developing the thesis that there are non-ionizing effects of radiation, of electrical fields. He showed his thesis once to me, but I've forgotten the details. That was back when a lot of the technology was very, very poor. Aside from his interest in x-rays, he established one group in Frankfurt concerned with measuring electrical properties and he formed another group to study how the so-called diathermy technology works on people. I was added to that group as a technician.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How many people were employed at that institute when you went there? </p>
+
How many people were employed at that institute when you went there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was fairly small. I would say, altogether, about twenty people. In my area there were about four or five people. </p>
+
It was fairly small. I would say, altogether, about twenty people. In my area there were about four or five people.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You could take classes at the university? </p>
+
You could take classes at the university?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I was permitted to take classes. Rajewsky had to approve them. Rajewsky somehow knew about my political views, and he deserves my gratitude for hiring me nonetheless. I first proposed to Rajewsky that I would once more seek an exemption from tuition fees. Characteristically he said, "No, no. Don't try. Don't try. I will handle that." He covered my tuition fees. He was aware that I was probably suspect in Frankfurt. You know, I was suspect at the time. </p>
+
Yes. I was permitted to take classes. Rajewsky had to approve them. Rajewsky somehow knew about my political views, and he deserves my gratitude for hiring me nonetheless. I first proposed to Rajewsky that I would once more seek an exemption from tuition fees. Characteristically he said, "No, no. Don't try. Don't try. I will handle that." He covered my tuition fees. He was aware that I was probably suspect in Frankfurt. You know, I was suspect at the time.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you think of this as a job that would put you through university or, were you already thinking that this might be a career path? </p>
+
Did you think of this as a job that would put you through university or, were you already thinking that this might be a career path?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I became rapidly interested in the field. I was still too young to see if I could make a career out of it. As a matter of fact, in the beginning I thought I would get a Ph.D. in the field. But then I returned to Telefunken. That's why I entered that microwave lab in the summer of 1938. </p>
+
I became rapidly interested in the field. I was still too young to see if I could make a career out of it. As a matter of fact, in the beginning I thought I would get a Ph.D. in the field. But then I returned to Telefunken. That's why I entered that microwave lab in the summer of 1938.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. You liked the work at Telefunken very much? </p>
+
I see. You liked the work at Telefunken very much?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I liked it. Oh, yes. No doubt, in normal times, I would have returned to Telefunken and I wouldn't have developed a strong interest in biophysics. I liked the work and the atmosphere very much. It was a good lab. There were a number of capable people there. </p>
+
I liked it. Oh, yes. No doubt, in normal times, I would have returned to Telefunken and I wouldn't have developed a strong interest in biophysics. I liked the work and the atmosphere very much. It was a good lab. There were a number of capable people there.  
  
 
=== Doctoral Work  ===
 
=== Doctoral Work  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You felt you needed the doctorate in order to do the kind of work you wanted at Telefunken? </p>
+
You felt you needed the doctorate in order to do the kind of work you wanted at Telefunken?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I wanted always to get the doctorate. I felt I was easily competent enough to get a doctorate. </p>
+
I wanted always to get the doctorate. I felt I was easily competent enough to get a doctorate.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did your studies and work go in Frankfurt? What year was that? </p>
+
How did your studies and work go in Frankfurt? What year was that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I started in October of 'thirty-seven. </p>
+
I started in October of 'thirty-seven.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In the summer of 'thirty-eight you were back in Berlin? </p>
+
In the summer of 'thirty-eight you were back in Berlin?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That's right. Yes. Quite. </p>
+
That's right. Yes. Quite.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did your studies go in Frankfurt? </p>
+
How did your studies go in Frankfurt?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Fine. No great problem. By that time I had taken so many engineering courses already, primarily math and physics that I needed to take only specialty courses. I took courses primarily in biophysics, offered by Professor Rajewsky. I took some courses in theoretical physics. I also took some laboratory courses in physics, and an advanced mathematics course in analytical techniques given by a man named Siegel. I don't know if you've heard about him. He eventually went to Princeton. He became very famous. He was also considered one of those geniuses. He left Germany in 'thirty-six and immediately was offered a job at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Princeton. </p>
+
Fine. No great problem. By that time I had taken so many engineering courses already, primarily math and physics that I needed to take only specialty courses. I took courses primarily in biophysics, offered by Professor Rajewsky. I took some courses in theoretical physics. I also took some laboratory courses in physics, and an advanced mathematics course in analytical techniques given by a man named Siegel. I don't know if you've heard about him. He eventually went to Princeton. He became very famous. He was also considered one of those geniuses. He left Germany in 'thirty-six and immediately was offered a job at the Institute for Advanced Studies in Princeton.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You received your doctorate in 1941? </p>
+
You received your doctorate in 1941?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was that with Rajewsky? </p>
+
Was that with Rajewsky?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you write a dissertation? </p>
+
Did you write a dissertation?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. In my dissertation I explored how to differentiate between two theories that explained the high-frequency properties of biological tissues. </p>
+
Yes. In my dissertation I explored how to differentiate between two theories that explained the high-frequency properties of biological tissues.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Which properties were you concerned with at that time? </p>
+
Which properties were you concerned with at that time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Dielectric constant and conductivity of cell suspensions. I studied particularly blood. There were two alternate theories which had been developed. One was based on the famous Peter Debye's polar dielectric theory. The alternate one, developed in the U.S. by Fricke and Cole, was the so-called Maxwell-Wagner type of theory. [Indicating photos.] That's Rajewsky on the left side. That's Cole on the right side. Cole and Fricke were primarily responsible for giving an alternate to Debye's theory. I proposed certain measurements, certain theoretical approaches on how to make a decision between those two. </p>
+
Dielectric constant and conductivity of cell suspensions. I studied particularly blood. There were two alternate theories which had been developed. One was based on the famous Peter Debye's polar dielectric theory. The alternate one, developed in the U.S. by Fricke and Cole, was the so-called Maxwell-Wagner type of theory. [Indicating photos.] That's Rajewsky on the left side. That's Cole on the right side. Cole and Fricke were primarily responsible for giving an alternate to Debye's theory. I proposed certain measurements, certain theoretical approaches on how to make a decision between those two.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did it work out? Did you decide that one was clearly superior? </p>
+
How did it work out? Did you decide that one was clearly superior?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. In my opinion I didn't finish the job completely. I was well underway when Rajewsky said, "I want you to now get your Ph.D." I said, "But I'm not ready yet. I want to do some more work." He said, "You have enough." He was insistent because some of the math professors in Frankfurt were being drafted. I had already registered to take my math examination under one particular professor. Suddenly, while I was at the institute, Rajewsky caught me and said, "He is going to leave tomorrow. You have to take your exam today." I wasn't prepared for the exam at all, but I went over to the professor. Suddenly I was involved in the usual rigmarole on account of my Ph.D. Well, it was all right. </p>
+
Yes. In my opinion I didn't finish the job completely. I was well underway when Rajewsky said, "I want you to now get your Ph.D." I said, "But I'm not ready yet. I want to do some more work." He said, "You have enough." He was insistent because some of the math professors in Frankfurt were being drafted. I had already registered to take my math examination under one particular professor. Suddenly, while I was at the institute, Rajewsky caught me and said, "He is going to leave tomorrow. You have to take your exam today." I wasn't prepared for the exam at all, but I went over to the professor. Suddenly I was involved in the usual rigmarole on account of my Ph.D. Well, it was all right.  
  
<p>By now, I liked the institute very much. I found that I could contribute a great deal. When I came there from Telefunken, I found electronic instrumentation in a state of neglect. I could clearly upgrade their accuracy a hundred-fold. I liked that very much. My first work as a technician was developing oscillators, Wheatstone bridges, and all sorts of other devices. I also worked on transmission line sections for the study of dielectric properties of tissues. Rajewsky recognized my expertise and supported my work by granting me money to purchase material and so on. It became apparent that I achieved almost a favored spot, based not on political views, but on my performance. I liked to work there very much indeed. A few years later I completed my work on my Ph.D. </p>
+
By now, I liked the institute very much. I found that I could contribute a great deal. When I came there from Telefunken, I found electronic instrumentation in a state of neglect. I could clearly upgrade their accuracy a hundred-fold. I liked that very much. My first work as a technician was developing oscillators, Wheatstone bridges, and all sorts of other devices. I also worked on transmission line sections for the study of dielectric properties of tissues. Rajewsky recognized my expertise and supported my work by granting me money to purchase material and so on. It became apparent that I achieved almost a favored spot, based not on political views, but on my performance. I liked to work there very much indeed. A few years later I completed my work on my Ph.D.  
  
 
=== Wartime Conditions  ===
 
=== Wartime Conditions  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I wonder if you could tell me what living conditions were like in Frankfurt during the war? </p>
+
I wonder if you could tell me what living conditions were like in Frankfurt during the war?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Conditions deteriorated slowly. As far as food was concerned, there was not a rapid transition. As a matter of fact, it had started deteriorating already before. In 1938, one year before the war, there was a famous Göring speech, "cannon instead of butter," and butter became rationed. I know in restaurants and coffee houses you couldn't get any more whipped cream. Whipped cream was forbidden. Mild restrictions went into effect in 'thirty-eight. Slowly but steadily, it became more and more severe. </p>
+
Conditions deteriorated slowly. As far as food was concerned, there was not a rapid transition. As a matter of fact, it had started deteriorating already before. In 1938, one year before the war, there was a famous Göring speech, "cannon instead of butter," and butter became rationed. I know in restaurants and coffee houses you couldn't get any more whipped cream. Whipped cream was forbidden. Mild restrictions went into effect in 'thirty-eight. Slowly but steadily, it became more and more severe.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was the effect on this particular research group? Were many of them pulled out for military service? </p>
+
What was the effect on this particular research group? Were many of them pulled out for military service?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>A few. Not many. Rajewsky had good political connections, and he was an excellent politician. Should I say, science administrator par excellence? </p>
+
A few. Not many. Rajewsky had good political connections, and he was an excellent politician. Should I say, science administrator par excellence?  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When did the bombing become noticeable? </p>
+
When did the bombing become noticeable?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Much later, I would say. It began in 1942. </p>
+
Much later, I would say. It began in 1942.  
  
 
=== Development of Biophysics Field  ===
 
=== Development of Biophysics Field  ===
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oh, there was one thing I should mention. The institute was originally a small one, about twenty people. It was housed in the medical school complex of the University of Frankfurt. In 1938 Rajewsky succeeded to make the institute a Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (what is now called the Max Planck Institute). I don't know if you know anything about the Max Planck organization or the former Kaiser Wilhelm organization. In 1912 many such institutes were created in Germany. First they appointed an institute director, then they gave him a building and money to do research with no strings attached. They set him up well enough so that he could hire staff or assistants. He could spend some money, within the limits of his budget, without having to account for it in detail. The institutes took off with a big bang. The first twelve institutes had all [[Nobel Prize|Nobel Prize]] winners as heads. Rajewsky succeeded in 1938 to get a Kaiser Wilhelm (now Max Planck) Institute of Biophysics. </p>
+
Oh, there was one thing I should mention. The institute was originally a small one, about twenty people. It was housed in the medical school complex of the University of Frankfurt. In 1938 Rajewsky succeeded to make the institute a Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (what is now called the Max Planck Institute). I don't know if you know anything about the Max Planck organization or the former Kaiser Wilhelm organization. In 1912 many such institutes were created in Germany. First they appointed an institute director, then they gave him a building and money to do research with no strings attached. They set him up well enough so that he could hire staff or assistants. He could spend some money, within the limits of his budget, without having to account for it in detail. The institutes took off with a big bang. The first twelve institutes had all [[Nobel Prize|Nobel Prize]] winners as heads. Rajewsky succeeded in 1938 to get a Kaiser Wilhelm (now Max Planck) Institute of Biophysics.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was it called Max Planck Institute at that time? </p>
+
Was it called Max Planck Institute at that time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Max Planck Institut für Biophysik, for Biophysics, yes. It was the first biophysics institute. </p>
+
Max Planck Institut für Biophysik, for Biophysics, yes. It was the first biophysics institute.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did the institute get funding from sources in addition to the Oswalt Foundation? </p>
+
Did the institute get funding from sources in addition to the Oswalt Foundation?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. The institute was now much richer. During the war the total group expanded from twenty to about sixty. Today it's something like 300 or so. It's a very formidable institute now. </p>
+
Yes. The institute was now much richer. During the war the total group expanded from twenty to about sixty. Today it's something like 300 or so. It's a very formidable institute now.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was the word "biophysics" common in the late 'thirties? </p>
+
Was the word "biophysics" common in the late 'thirties?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. It was not common. Rajewsky always claimed that he introduced the word "biophysics," which is not quite correct. I had a reprint of Hugo Fricke's work published by the so-called Biophysics Laboratory in Cleveland. So already in the late 'twenties or early 'thirties, the word "biophysics" was used in this country, at least in Cleveland. </p>
+
No. It was not common. Rajewsky always claimed that he introduced the word "biophysics," which is not quite correct. I had a reprint of Hugo Fricke's work published by the so-called Biophysics Laboratory in Cleveland. So already in the late 'twenties or early 'thirties, the word "biophysics" was used in this country, at least in Cleveland.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You must have been one of the first to earn a doctorate in biophysics? </p>
+
You must have been one of the first to earn a doctorate in biophysics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Again, I would think that the Frankfurt biophysics people were some of the very earliest indeed. But the late Sam Talbot, a man who had a strong effect on the development of the field of bioengineering (he died some ten years ago) told me that he had gotten a degree in biophysics at Harvard in the early 'thirties. There must have been a biophysics program of sorts at Harvard at that time. </p>
+
Yes. Again, I would think that the Frankfurt biophysics people were some of the very earliest indeed. But the late Sam Talbot, a man who had a strong effect on the development of the field of bioengineering (he died some ten years ago) told me that he had gotten a degree in biophysics at Harvard in the early 'thirties. There must have been a biophysics program of sorts at Harvard at that time.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you the first at Frankfurt to get a doctorate in biophysics? </p>
+
Were you the first at Frankfurt to get a doctorate in biophysics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. There were several before me. Not many. Perhaps three or four. </p>
+
No. There were several before me. Not many. Perhaps three or four.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What did you imagine your career to be at that point? Did you hope to continue doing research in that field? </p>
+
What did you imagine your career to be at that point? Did you hope to continue doing research in that field?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>At that point? Well, Rajewsky offered me an assistantship. By that time it became clear to me that I would have a good chance to enter the academic arena. I had been thinking about going into an academic career. During my second year at Göttingen I took a rather advanced physics laboratory course taught by a famous theoretical physicist named Joost. Joost was apparently impressed with my performance. He told me that I should get in touch with him when I was finished with my regular course work. He thought he might be able to give me a position. In other words, it became apparent to me that several people at the university were interested in my seeking an academic career. </p>
+
At that point? Well, Rajewsky offered me an assistantship. By that time it became clear to me that I would have a good chance to enter the academic arena. I had been thinking about going into an academic career. During my second year at Göttingen I took a rather advanced physics laboratory course taught by a famous theoretical physicist named Joost. Joost was apparently impressed with my performance. He told me that I should get in touch with him when I was finished with my regular course work. He thought he might be able to give me a position. In other words, it became apparent to me that several people at the university were interested in my seeking an academic career.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>But biophysics was such an unusual field at the time. </p>
+
But biophysics was such an unusual field at the time.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Would it have been possible to get an academic appointment elsewhere? </p>
+
Would it have been possible to get an academic appointment elsewhere?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The field was developing. Also, some people who worked in biophysics — there were some examples in my institute — returned to the standard sciences but continued to do biophysics work. For example, one of Rajewsky's assistants became a professor of physics at the University of Frankfurt and continued to do some biophysics work there. Later on, of course, other biophysics institutions slowly developed. I was fairly optimistic I could make an academic career in biophysics at that time. </p>
+
The field was developing. Also, some people who worked in biophysics — there were some examples in my institute — returned to the standard sciences but continued to do biophysics work. For example, one of Rajewsky's assistants became a professor of physics at the University of Frankfurt and continued to do some biophysics work there. Later on, of course, other biophysics institutions slowly developed. I was fairly optimistic I could make an academic career in biophysics at that time.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You had decided not to return to Telefunken? </p>
+
You had decided not to return to Telefunken?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I was fairly confident. On the other hand, I should say the decision was not a hard one to make. I was not plagued with choices. So long as I was with Rajewsky, I wouldn't be drafted. If I left him I would be drafted right away. It was quite clear I had to stay with Rajewsky. </p>
+
Yes. I was fairly confident. On the other hand, I should say the decision was not a hard one to make. I was not plagued with choices. So long as I was with Rajewsky, I wouldn't be drafted. If I left him I would be drafted right away. It was quite clear I had to stay with Rajewsky.  
  
 
=== Wartime Politics and Bombing  ===
 
=== Wartime Politics and Bombing  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you describe the social atmosphere of that institute in those years? Were people depressed because of the war? Or were there many who sympathized with the war and thought that things might work out well? What was the atmosphere there? </p>
+
Can you describe the social atmosphere of that institute in those years? Were people depressed because of the war? Or were there many who sympathized with the war and thought that things might work out well? What was the atmosphere there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The majority believed that Hitler was right, that he would win the war. There was a small group of people at the institute, however, who were violently anti-Nazi. Two men in the group were friends of mine, including a professor who just retired. He entered the institute in 1941, and he worked in the lab next to mine. Our discussions were always very guarded. When I met him I said something like, "Well, what do you think about Rommel's campaign? I heard some rumor that a battle took place at El Alamein. And I can't believe it. They say he was beaten there. That can't be true." He said, "I heard a similar rumor." That's how discussions went, typically. You acted very wary to find out how the other person acted. Within a few days we were spending evenings together at the institute listening to the BBC on my advanced radio receiver. In Germany if you were found listening to the BBC on the radio, you could get the death penalty. </p>
+
The majority believed that Hitler was right, that he would win the war. There was a small group of people at the institute, however, who were violently anti-Nazi. Two men in the group were friends of mine, including a professor who just retired. He entered the institute in 1941, and he worked in the lab next to mine. Our discussions were always very guarded. When I met him I said something like, "Well, what do you think about Rommel's campaign? I heard some rumor that a battle took place at El Alamein. And I can't believe it. They say he was beaten there. That can't be true." He said, "I heard a similar rumor." That's how discussions went, typically. You acted very wary to find out how the other person acted. Within a few days we were spending evenings together at the institute listening to the BBC on my advanced radio receiver. In Germany if you were found listening to the BBC on the radio, you could get the death penalty.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Weren't you afraid that someone might report you doing that? </p>
+
Weren't you afraid that someone might report you doing that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I didn't tell other people that I listened to the BBC. Never! </p>
+
I didn't tell other people that I listened to the BBC. Never!  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You must have been very careful in what you mentioned in conversation. </p>
+
You must have been very careful in what you mentioned in conversation.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>One had to be very careful. Very careful indeed. There was another man at the institute who was anti-Nazi. He later worked in industry. He is also still alive. Most of the others however, were either weak believers or they were Nazi fanatics. </p>
+
One had to be very careful. Very careful indeed. There was another man at the institute who was anti-Nazi. He later worked in industry. He is also still alive. Most of the others however, were either weak believers or they were Nazi fanatics.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were these Nazi sympathizers optimistic in 'forty-two and 'forty-three? </p>
+
Were these Nazi sympathizers optimistic in 'forty-two and 'forty-three?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I tell you, day to day, I can't see it. Were they blind? What was wrong with them? To me it was so obvious how the war was going. I still can't understand how these people could believe to the end that they would win the war. I have no explanation for it. </p>
+
Yes. I tell you, day to day, I can't see it. Were they blind? What was wrong with them? To me it was so obvious how the war was going. I still can't understand how these people could believe to the end that they would win the war. I have no explanation for it.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Except that, until 'forty-two or so, things had been pretty much going the German way everywhere. The Barbarossa campaign was quite a success at first. </p>
+
Except that, until 'forty-two or so, things had been pretty much going the German way everywhere. The Barbarossa campaign was quite a success at first.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, I was surprised. Originally I was surprised that France didn't enter the war. I was also astonished that England didn't enter the war against Germany earlier. Hitler's success surprised me very much. His success surprised many people. In the fall, just a few months after Barbarossa had started, we witnessed the first sign that things weren't going very well. I'm talking about the battle near Moscow. In late 'forty-one Guderian's total tank army was destroyed. That was the first time that the Nazis lost a complete army. </p>
+
Yes, I was surprised. Originally I was surprised that France didn't enter the war. I was also astonished that England didn't enter the war against Germany earlier. Hitler's success surprised me very much. His success surprised many people. In the fall, just a few months after Barbarossa had started, we witnessed the first sign that things weren't going very well. I'm talking about the battle near Moscow. In late 'forty-one Guderian's total tank army was destroyed. That was the first time that the Nazis lost a complete army.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You found out? </p>
+
You found out?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No, officially the army had "successfully retreated." But for one who has the sense to guess, a successful retreat is not exactly a mystery, you know. [Laughter.] </p>
+
No, officially the army had "successfully retreated." But for one who has the sense to guess, a successful retreat is not exactly a mystery, you know. [Laughter.]  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>The defeat at Stalingrad, a year later, must have sobered a lot of people in Germany. They must have begun to feel that the war might not go as they'd expected. </p>
+
The defeat at Stalingrad, a year later, must have sobered a lot of people in Germany. They must have begun to feel that the war might not go as they'd expected.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I suspect that people became more critical. In the apartment house where I lived, we had several people who were very skeptical about the further development of the war. Indeed, Stalingrad was a very catastrophic loss. </p>
+
I suspect that people became more critical. In the apartment house where I lived, we had several people who were very skeptical about the further development of the war. Indeed, Stalingrad was a very catastrophic loss.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was that reported? </p>
+
Was that reported?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, it was reported. Then, half a year later and for the first time, the Nazis got stopped in summertime. That, the Battle of Kursk, was the biggest attack ever. That was just a few months after Stalingrad. It was very obvious then that the Nazis were in full retreat; but many believed to the end that the Nazis would win the war. </p>
+
Yes, it was reported. Then, half a year later and for the first time, the Nazis got stopped in summertime. That, the Battle of Kursk, was the biggest attack ever. That was just a few months after Stalingrad. It was very obvious then that the Nazis were in full retreat; but many believed to the end that the Nazis would win the war.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What happened to living conditions in Frankfurt in the last years of the war? </p>
+
What happened to living conditions in Frankfurt in the last years of the war?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The food supply had deteriorated. Bombing had damaged the city significantly. </p>
+
The food supply had deteriorated. Bombing had damaged the city significantly.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>There was much bombing there? </p>
+
There was much bombing there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oh, yes. The center town of Frankfurt was completely destroyed. </p>
+
Oh, yes. The center town of Frankfurt was completely destroyed.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was the institute destroyed? </p>
+
Was the institute destroyed?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The institute was heavily damaged. </p>
+
The institute was heavily damaged.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you ever close to a bomb yourself? </p>
+
Were you ever close to a bomb yourself?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oh, yes. We had many air raids. In March 1944 we experienced a series of four air raids in less than a week. That series of bombings essentially wiped out Frankfurt. The damage was very, very heavy. My mother's house was half destroyed. Curiously enough my apartment house did not suffer. I rented an apartment near I.G. Farben administrative headquarters. </p>
+
Oh, yes. We had many air raids. In March 1944 we experienced a series of four air raids in less than a week. That series of bombings essentially wiped out Frankfurt. The damage was very, very heavy. My mother's house was half destroyed. Curiously enough my apartment house did not suffer. I rented an apartment near I.G. Farben administrative headquarters.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That sounds dangerous. </p>
+
That sounds dangerous.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was completely preserved. </p>
+
It was completely preserved.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You're saying the Allied Forces purposely avoided bombing that? </p>
+
You're saying the Allied Forces purposely avoided bombing that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Absolutely! It was clear. </p>
+
Yes. Absolutely! It was clear.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Why is that? </p>
+
Why is that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Well, there are two interpretations. An executive with Du Pont and General Motors offered one interpretation. I was once invited to his estate on the Chesapeake Bay. At one time or another he had been a chief executive officer. Since I was dating a friend of his daughter, he invited me to the estate and offered to help me. He also invited the president of Sperry Gyroscope to his place. He wanted this man to get me a job with Sperry. He told me that I.G. Farben and Du Pont were heavily intertwined. He claimed that in fact Du Pont owned fifty-one percent of the stock of I.G. Farben, and vice versa. He said to me, "We never had any intention to ruin our own headquarters in Germany. That's our stuff." The second interpretation, which I read later on, was that Eisenhower had decided fairly early that he wanted to have that building complex for his headquarters in Germany. So, I don't know. Anyhow, I didn't suffer much. Windows were blown out, of course. But the building did not suffer much damage. Just two blocks away, however, there was just unbelievable damage. </p>
+
Well, there are two interpretations. An executive with Du Pont and General Motors offered one interpretation. I was once invited to his estate on the Chesapeake Bay. At one time or another he had been a chief executive officer. Since I was dating a friend of his daughter, he invited me to the estate and offered to help me. He also invited the president of Sperry Gyroscope to his place. He wanted this man to get me a job with Sperry. He told me that I.G. Farben and Du Pont were heavily intertwined. He claimed that in fact Du Pont owned fifty-one percent of the stock of I.G. Farben, and vice versa. He said to me, "We never had any intention to ruin our own headquarters in Germany. That's our stuff." The second interpretation, which I read later on, was that Eisenhower had decided fairly early that he wanted to have that building complex for his headquarters in Germany. So, I don't know. Anyhow, I didn't suffer much. Windows were blown out, of course. But the building did not suffer much damage. Just two blocks away, however, there was just unbelievable damage.  
  
 
=== Radar Evasion Research  ===
 
=== Radar Evasion Research  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was it possible to continue doing research in those last years of the war? </p>
+
Was it possible to continue doing research in those last years of the war?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Our work suffered more and more. </p>
+
Our work suffered more and more.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did it continue? </p>
+
Did it continue?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It continued. It continued, oh, yes. </p>
+
It continued. It continued, oh, yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You continued working on the same topics? </p>
+
You continued working on the same topics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Actually, yes. But our work had shifted. Curiously enough, I continued doing what I wanted to do until 'forty-three. In 'forty-three, Rajewsky returned from a trip to Berlin. The Armed Forces had called a meeting of physicists. They had been instructed that submarines couldn't operate in the Atlantic anymore because they were being detected by radar. The government gave orders to do something about it. Some physicists were to develop materials to cover submarines which would not reflect radar beams. What was radar called in this country? It was called the "snorkel concept." You may have heard about it. </p>
+
Actually, yes. But our work had shifted. Curiously enough, I continued doing what I wanted to do until 'forty-three. In 'forty-three, Rajewsky returned from a trip to Berlin. The Armed Forces had called a meeting of physicists. They had been instructed that submarines couldn't operate in the Atlantic anymore because they were being detected by radar. The government gave orders to do something about it. Some physicists were to develop materials to cover submarines which would not reflect radar beams. What was radar called in this country? It was called the "snorkel concept." You may have heard about it.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Rajewsky was asked to work on that? </p>
+
Rajewsky was asked to work on that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. He came back from that meeting. Of course, since I was the most advanced in dielectric technology and dielectric measurements at the institute, I was supposed to measure materials which might be useful. It was a fairly small effort. There were three groups of people at a number of different institutes, including theoreticians, who were developing so-called swamp materials. The materials would absorb radiation. </p>
+
Yes. He came back from that meeting. Of course, since I was the most advanced in dielectric technology and dielectric measurements at the institute, I was supposed to measure materials which might be useful. It was a fairly small effort. There were three groups of people at a number of different institutes, including theoreticians, who were developing so-called swamp materials. The materials would absorb radiation.  
  
<p>As a consequence, the code name was "Chimney Sweeper," because of the idea of blackness. The theoretical group worked to develop concepts of what combination of materials might be useful. Then there was industry, charged with the problem of how to produce such materials, if possible. Other groups developed methods to test whether the properties met I.G. Farben's specifications. I continued to develop microwave technology to higher frequencies and to measure properties with increasing sophistication. </p>
+
As a consequence, the code name was "Chimney Sweeper," because of the idea of blackness. The theoretical group worked to develop concepts of what combination of materials might be useful. Then there was industry, charged with the problem of how to produce such materials, if possible. Other groups developed methods to test whether the properties met I.G. Farben's specifications. I continued to develop microwave technology to higher frequencies and to measure properties with increasing sophistication.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you have the equipment for that at Frankfurt? </p>
+
Did you have the equipment for that at Frankfurt?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I did, yes. I had first a so-called open-line system, and then I got two coaxial systems from Siemens which were rather advanced and made to our specifications. They were state-of-the-art equipment at that time. </p>
+
I did, yes. I had first a so-called open-line system, and then I got two coaxial systems from Siemens which were rather advanced and made to our specifications. They were state-of-the-art equipment at that time.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were there other groups working on this? </p>
+
Were there other groups working on this?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>There was one group in Göttingen, and another group at Telefunken carrying out dielectric measurements. </p>
+
There was one group in Göttingen, and another group at Telefunken carrying out dielectric measurements.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>They served the same purpose? </p>
+
They served the same purpose?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, but my group was probably the most advanced in terms of know-how. </p>
+
Yes, but my group was probably the most advanced in terms of know-how.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you in close contact with those two other groups? </p>
+
Were you in close contact with those two other groups?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I met them once or twice or so per year. </p>
+
Yes. I met them once or twice or so per year.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Each group worked independently? </p>
+
Each group worked independently?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Our group was, perhaps, more active in technology development. Clearly, by that time I had become most technically competent in measuring high-frequencies. I concentrated on development. I was, of course, even less sympathetic to the system. Even though I was reluctant, I had to turn out data. As long as I did development of technology, I didn't necessarily have to provide data. I could say to Professor Rajewsky, "I'm still developing this technology. Give me a few more weeks." Nevertheless, they wanted more data. It led to a severe conflict on my part. At our previous meetings, I'd talk about the upsetting periods of my life. I would mention my tuition problems and my father's difficulties. </p>
+
Yes. Our group was, perhaps, more active in technology development. Clearly, by that time I had become most technically competent in measuring high-frequencies. I concentrated on development. I was, of course, even less sympathetic to the system. Even though I was reluctant, I had to turn out data. As long as I did development of technology, I didn't necessarily have to provide data. I could say to Professor Rajewsky, "I'm still developing this technology. Give me a few more weeks." Nevertheless, they wanted more data. It led to a severe conflict on my part. At our previous meetings, I'd talk about the upsetting periods of my life. I would mention my tuition problems and my father's difficulties.  
  
 
=== Passing Research Secrets to Allies  ===
 
=== Passing Research Secrets to Allies  ===
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p><flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 1.mp3</flashmp3></p>
+
<flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 1.mp3</flashmp3>
  
<p>One day a friend came to me. He had gotten his Ph.D. in physics. He visited with me, and he said, "Herman, we must do something about the system." "What can we do?" I asked. "Well," he said, "a colleague and friend whose name I won't mention to you, who feels like we do politically, has contacted the American or English embassies in Berne, Switzerland. Are you willing to contribute information?" At first I said no. A day later he said, "You think it over. I'll come back." I gave him the frequency range in which "swamp" was operative. I was very afraid. If any people had found out I would have been shot for treason. That was my first act of treason against what was officially Germany. I did it with the conviction that the interests of Germany were not identical with the interests of the Nazis. I believe one has a moral responsibility to do whatever one can to bring a brutal dictatorship down. I don't know if the information was submitted. This friend of mine told me a few weeks later, "The man — I won't give you his name — has been captured, and he is in a concentration camp." </p>
+
One day a friend came to me. He had gotten his Ph.D. in physics. He visited with me, and he said, "Herman, we must do something about the system." "What can we do?" I asked. "Well," he said, "a colleague and friend whose name I won't mention to you, who feels like we do politically, has contacted the American or English embassies in Berne, Switzerland. Are you willing to contribute information?" At first I said no. A day later he said, "You think it over. I'll come back." I gave him the frequency range in which "swamp" was operative. I was very afraid. If any people had found out I would have been shot for treason. That was my first act of treason against what was officially Germany. I did it with the conviction that the interests of Germany were not identical with the interests of the Nazis. I believe one has a moral responsibility to do whatever one can to bring a brutal dictatorship down. I don't know if the information was submitted. This friend of mine told me a few weeks later, "The man — I won't give you his name — has been captured, and he is in a concentration camp."  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>The man who was to convey that information was his colleague? </p>
+
The man who was to convey that information was his colleague?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, but he didn't know if his friend had conveyed the information to Switzerland yet. But this man who was in a concentration camp survived through the end of the war. During the last period of the war, I was afraid he would squeal. If he talked, I would be done for. I purchased a gun, a Luger, on the black market. I planned to shoot myself when they came banging at the door to pick me up. It was not pleasant to live that way. It was difficult living with the bombing, no food, and the fear. Well, you asked me about how living in Germany was. After the war, I found out that the man who had been sent to the concentration camp was a well-known psychologist. He had been asked by the Nazis to try certain drugs on concentration camp inmates and participate in human experiments. He refused to do so, and for that they put him in the camp. </p>
+
Yes, but he didn't know if his friend had conveyed the information to Switzerland yet. But this man who was in a concentration camp survived through the end of the war. During the last period of the war, I was afraid he would squeal. If he talked, I would be done for. I purchased a gun, a Luger, on the black market. I planned to shoot myself when they came banging at the door to pick me up. It was not pleasant to live that way. It was difficult living with the bombing, no food, and the fear. Well, you asked me about how living in Germany was. After the war, I found out that the man who had been sent to the concentration camp was a well-known psychologist. He had been asked by the Nazis to try certain drugs on concentration camp inmates and participate in human experiments. He refused to do so, and for that they put him in the camp.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Of course you didn't know the reason at the time. </p>
+
Of course you didn't know the reason at the time.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I didn't know that. What times! God, whenever I think about it. Well, you asked me about the social circumstances. These stories must sound unbelievable to you. It's true, I assure you. It's true. </p>
+
I didn't know that. What times! God, whenever I think about it. Well, you asked me about the social circumstances. These stories must sound unbelievable to you. It's true, I assure you. It's true.  
  
 
=== Radar Evasion Research Cont'd.  ===
 
=== Radar Evasion Research Cont'd.  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You called this system to make the submarines invisible to radar, "swamp"? </p>
+
You called this system to make the submarines invisible to radar, "swamp"?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. ''Sumpf''. It's a German word. </p>
+
Yes. ''Sumpf''. It's a German word.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was this system actually implemented? </p>
+
Was this system actually implemented?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, it was. </p>
+
Yes, it was.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What kind of material did you use? </p>
+
What kind of material did you use?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was a combination, a layered material. At each interface reflections take place. You can calculate the reflection coefficient as a function of the layer properties. It's easy to design the properties for minimal reflection. </p>
+
It was a combination, a layered material. At each interface reflections take place. You can calculate the reflection coefficient as a function of the layer properties. It's easy to design the properties for minimal reflection.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was it known what frequencies the Allies were using for their radar? </p>
+
Was it known what frequencies the Allies were using for their radar?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, it was known that the twelve-centimeter band was the most popular radar equipment in existence. The Allies had developed the twelve-centimeter radar. The swamp was effective between ten and fifty centimeter wavelengths. The intensity of reflection was decreased ten-fold. That material was applied just to the towers of the submarines, which had to emerge above water to recharge their diesel engine batteries. The German subs became operative for one or two months shortly after the production of this material. It was in late 'forty-four when the Germans were sinking something like 200,000 tons of Allied shipping across the Atlantic each month. But the Germans had nothing later, when the Allies operated equipment at three centimeter wavelengths. That was way out of range. </p>
+
Yes, it was known that the twelve-centimeter band was the most popular radar equipment in existence. The Allies had developed the twelve-centimeter radar. The swamp was effective between ten and fifty centimeter wavelengths. The intensity of reflection was decreased ten-fold. That material was applied just to the towers of the submarines, which had to emerge above water to recharge their diesel engine batteries. The German subs became operative for one or two months shortly after the production of this material. It was in late 'forty-four when the Germans were sinking something like 200,000 tons of Allied shipping across the Atlantic each month. But the Germans had nothing later, when the Allies operated equipment at three centimeter wavelengths. That was way out of range.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How important was your group in developing this material? </p>
+
How important was your group in developing this material?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>We didn't develop the material. We measured its properties. In other words, we had to check if certain specifications were met. The theoreticians developed an idea of what properties they wanted to have realized. </p>
+
We didn't develop the material. We measured its properties. In other words, we had to check if certain specifications were met. The theoreticians developed an idea of what properties they wanted to have realized.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did they send you the materials? </p>
+
Did they send you the materials?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The chemists had to produce it, and I had to check what the dielectric properties were. I had become expert in measuring dielectric properties. </p>
+
The chemists had to produce it, and I had to check what the dielectric properties were. I had become expert in measuring dielectric properties.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you informed on the project as a whole? Did you know what this was being used for? </p>
+
Were you informed on the project as a whole? Did you know what this was being used for?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not officially. But I learned about it by meeting with other groups. Scientists talk with each other. I put the various comments I got from various people together in my own mind. I went to the I.G. Farben Laboratories, what is now called Hoechst Pharmaceuticals, fairly often. It is one of the three biggest chemical companies today. It's in a suburb of Frankfurt. I brought my results there and picked up new materials. I talked with the people there. </p>
+
Not officially. But I learned about it by meeting with other groups. Scientists talk with each other. I put the various comments I got from various people together in my own mind. I went to the I.G. Farben Laboratories, what is now called Hoechst Pharmaceuticals, fairly often. It is one of the three biggest chemical companies today. It's in a suburb of Frankfurt. I brought my results there and picked up new materials. I talked with the people there.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You've mentioned already that you delayed by working on the measuring equipment rather than delivering data. </p>
+
You've mentioned already that you delayed by working on the measuring equipment rather than delivering data.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I take it that you had scruples about contributing to the war effort. </p>
+
I take it that you had scruples about contributing to the war effort.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I was well aware of the fact that I had to contribute. If not, I would have been drafted. If I blatantly refused, I might have suffered the fate of that psychologist and would have been put in a concentration camp. I was at risk because of my political record. </p>
+
Yes. I was well aware of the fact that I had to contribute. If not, I would have been drafted. If I blatantly refused, I might have suffered the fate of that psychologist and would have been put in a concentration camp. I was at risk because of my political record.  
  
 
=== German Nuclear Projects  ===
 
=== German Nuclear Projects  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was there other war-related work done at the institute there in Frankfurt? </p>
+
Was there other war-related work done at the institute there in Frankfurt?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>By that time most of the people worked on war-related projects. </p>
+
By that time most of the people worked on war-related projects.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you involved in any others? </p>
+
Were you involved in any others?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. That was the main project. I don't know too many details, but one project was concerned about the effect of ionizing radiation on man. Rajewsky was a leading expert on ionizing radiation. He had gotten a large contract. Now, why are there some people interested in ionizing radiation? That had to do with a reactor at Hechingen. </p>
+
No. That was the main project. I don't know too many details, but one project was concerned about the effect of ionizing radiation on man. Rajewsky was a leading expert on ionizing radiation. He had gotten a large contract. Now, why are there some people interested in ionizing radiation? That had to do with a reactor at Hechingen.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Where was the reactor? </p>
+
Where was the reactor?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Hechingen is in the Würtemberg area. The Germans were working on an Atomic Pile Project, which was headed by Heisenberg. The people there were greatly concerned about radiation damage. In other words, they wanted to know what happens "a la Chernobyl." The same thing happened in this country, by the way. I remember very well K. C. Cole telling me once that during the war he stopped his work on dielectric properties of biological materials and worked primarily for the Atomic Energy Commission. He worked with the [[Manhattan Project|Manhattan Project]] exploring the effects of radiation on people who were working with the reactors. The reactor was built in Chicago in 'forty-two. </p>
+
Hechingen is in the Würtemberg area. The Germans were working on an Atomic Pile Project, which was headed by Heisenberg. The people there were greatly concerned about radiation damage. In other words, they wanted to know what happens "a la Chernobyl." The same thing happened in this country, by the way. I remember very well K. C. Cole telling me once that during the war he stopped his work on dielectric properties of biological materials and worked primarily for the Atomic Energy Commission. He worked with the [[Manhattan Project|Manhattan Project]] exploring the effects of radiation on people who were working with the reactors. The reactor was built in Chicago in 'forty-two.  
  
 
=== Wartime Conditions and End of War  ===
 
=== Wartime Conditions and End of War  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Just a few more questions about the wartime conditions. Were you able to keep in touch with your father and mother in that period? </p>
+
Just a few more questions about the wartime conditions. Were you able to keep in touch with your father and mother in that period?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>By and large, yes. Like so many Germans, my mother moved to the countryside to escape from the bombings. She accepted a job helping a farmer's family with the kids and related things. Primarily due to the fact that children were moved to the countryside, moving to hospitals, and such, Frankfurt, originally a city of some 600,000 people, was reduced to about 200,000 people. </p>
+
By and large, yes. Like so many Germans, my mother moved to the countryside to escape from the bombings. She accepted a job helping a farmer's family with the kids and related things. Primarily due to the fact that children were moved to the countryside, moving to hospitals, and such, Frankfurt, originally a city of some 600,000 people, was reduced to about 200,000 people.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You had a couple of friends there that you could be honest with about your views? </p>
+
You had a couple of friends there that you could be honest with about your views?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, I mentioned two. </p>
+
Yes, I mentioned two.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What happened at the end of the war when the Allied armies were in Germany? They were chaotic times, I understand. </p>
+
What happened at the end of the war when the Allied armies were in Germany? They were chaotic times, I understand.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What were your personal circumstances? </p>
+
What were your personal circumstances?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Well, before the Allies arrived, most of the people in the Frankfurt Institute had been relocated, on a voluntary basis. Rajewsky had set up two smaller institutes in villages outside Frankfurt. They were not touched by airplanes. Why bomb a village? As a matter of fact, most of the Nazi supporters moved out there to be centrally located in Germany. I decided I wanted to stay in Frankfurt. I anticipated that if the war came to an end, Frankfurt would be taken much earlier than a faraway place in central Germany where the institute had relocated, being close to the western German border. And I proved to be right. </p>
+
Well, before the Allies arrived, most of the people in the Frankfurt Institute had been relocated, on a voluntary basis. Rajewsky had set up two smaller institutes in villages outside Frankfurt. They were not touched by airplanes. Why bomb a village? As a matter of fact, most of the Nazi supporters moved out there to be centrally located in Germany. I decided I wanted to stay in Frankfurt. I anticipated that if the war came to an end, Frankfurt would be taken much earlier than a faraway place in central Germany where the institute had relocated, being close to the western German border. And I proved to be right.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was that Oberschlema? </p>
+
Was that Oberschlema?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oberschlema was one institute, yes. And there were two other institutions. I stayed in Frankfurt. I remember very well. That morning of March 15, 1945, I was at I.G. Farben, again, going over data or some discussions with them. At noontime someone came and said, "It was just announced that the Americans crossed the Rhine River a few miles south of here — at Gross Gerau." The radio announced that the Germans had sent in tiger tanks and that the attack was completely under control and had been repelled. In the meantime, Patton was crossing the Rhine and opened up the total southern flank of Germany. Patton would soon be bypassing Frankfurt with his troops and approaching Würzburg with speed. In other words, it happened very fast. The Americans had crossed the Rhine at Gross Gerau in the south, while Montgomery would cross the Rhine in northern Germany. There were practically no German soldiers there at all. All that talk about tiger tanks and so on was once again just typical Nazi propaganda. When Patton didn't find any resistance, he put everything at his disposal and moved through fast. </p>
+
Oberschlema was one institute, yes. And there were two other institutions. I stayed in Frankfurt. I remember very well. That morning of March 15, 1945, I was at I.G. Farben, again, going over data or some discussions with them. At noontime someone came and said, "It was just announced that the Americans crossed the Rhine River a few miles south of here — at Gross Gerau." The radio announced that the Germans had sent in tiger tanks and that the attack was completely under control and had been repelled. In the meantime, Patton was crossing the Rhine and opened up the total southern flank of Germany. Patton would soon be bypassing Frankfurt with his troops and approaching Würzburg with speed. In other words, it happened very fast. The Americans had crossed the Rhine at Gross Gerau in the south, while Montgomery would cross the Rhine in northern Germany. There were practically no German soldiers there at all. All that talk about tiger tanks and so on was once again just typical Nazi propaganda. When Patton didn't find any resistance, he put everything at his disposal and moved through fast.  
  
<p>By nine o'clock that evening the Nazi governor of Hessen gave a speech and ordered the total population of Frankfurt to move out of the city — by foot, bicycle, whatever was at their disposal. That led to unbelievable chaos! It was one of those suicidal orders we all had to face. The streets were all packed up with those poor people trying to move out, intermixed with some military columns. Airplanes were attacking. I would have been insane to go out, and I didn't. I decided to do something else. I crossed the bridge to the south side of the river where the institute was located. Three hours after I had moved over to the south side, the Nazis detonated the main bridges. After a day or two, the Americans were rolling in. I remember the Germans had set up a few German soldiers with either a bazooka or something of that sort across from the institute. I suddenly heard some clanking noise. As I looked out, I saw in the side street American tanks rolling by. I was very excited. The Americans soldiers looked at me. There were not many other Germans greeting them. The tank moved around the corner and fired. Later we found the little nest at the corner destroyed. The tremendous American army invasion into Frankfurt had begun. </p>
+
By nine o'clock that evening the Nazi governor of Hessen gave a speech and ordered the total population of Frankfurt to move out of the city — by foot, bicycle, whatever was at their disposal. That led to unbelievable chaos! It was one of those suicidal orders we all had to face. The streets were all packed up with those poor people trying to move out, intermixed with some military columns. Airplanes were attacking. I would have been insane to go out, and I didn't. I decided to do something else. I crossed the bridge to the south side of the river where the institute was located. Three hours after I had moved over to the south side, the Nazis detonated the main bridges. After a day or two, the Americans were rolling in. I remember the Germans had set up a few German soldiers with either a bazooka or something of that sort across from the institute. I suddenly heard some clanking noise. As I looked out, I saw in the side street American tanks rolling by. I was very excited. The Americans soldiers looked at me. There were not many other Germans greeting them. The tank moved around the corner and fired. Later we found the little nest at the corner destroyed. The tremendous American army invasion into Frankfurt had begun.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were staying at the institute then? </p>
+
You were staying at the institute then?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I stayed at the institute for a while. While I was at the institute it was occupied by American soldiers. I was asked to show them the rooms and laboratories. They had to clear the area of German soldiers. So I did that. Rajewsky had gone away to central Germany with most of the other people. I was one of the few left. There were about six people in the institute. The others apparently still hoped for the final victory of the Führer. The Americans were sitting on the south side of the Main River. For a while the north side was still occupied by the German Army. The bridges had been detonated. After a few days, the Americans notified the German command that they would bomb the northern section once more in preparation for an attack. The German commander retreated and turned over Frankfurt to the Americans. Fortunately, by then Hitler's power started to break up and many commanders disobeyed his insane orders. </p>
+
I stayed at the institute for a while. While I was at the institute it was occupied by American soldiers. I was asked to show them the rooms and laboratories. They had to clear the area of German soldiers. So I did that. Rajewsky had gone away to central Germany with most of the other people. I was one of the few left. There were about six people in the institute. The others apparently still hoped for the final victory of the Führer. The Americans were sitting on the south side of the Main River. For a while the north side was still occupied by the German Army. The bridges had been detonated. After a few days, the Americans notified the German command that they would bomb the northern section once more in preparation for an attack. The German commander retreated and turned over Frankfurt to the Americans. Fortunately, by then Hitler's power started to break up and many commanders disobeyed his insane orders.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you speak any English at that time? </p>
+
Did you speak any English at that time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, I had six years of English in high school but I didn't speak it that well. </p>
+
Yes, I had six years of English in high school but I didn't speak it that well.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What happened in the first days and weeks after the American troops arrived? </p>
+
What happened in the first days and weeks after the American troops arrived?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I got all sorts of things done. Rajewsky was gone so no one else was around take care of the institute. </p>
+
I got all sorts of things done. Rajewsky was gone so no one else was around take care of the institute.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were one of the first Germans to get this pass to cross the Main River? </p>
+
You were one of the first Germans to get this pass to cross the Main River?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>This pass here. </p>
+
This pass here.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It's dated the second of April of 'forty-five. </p>
+
It's dated the second of April of 'forty-five.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. It says "Working with the U.S. Navy, may cross Main River freely." The first sort of pontoon bridge from south to north Frankfurt had been established on an emergency basis across the main river. I was permitted to cross it. Otherwise, only Americans could cross it, of course. The military government issued me the pass that said I was working with the U.S. Navy. I rapidly received active support from the military government. That proved to be important later. Rajewsky was not there. There was a vacuum of power. I succeeded in getting protection for the institute from the military government. Protection meant, in effect, "Off Limits by Order of the Military Government." No one but authorized personnel were permitted inside. </p>
+
Yes. It says "Working with the U.S. Navy, may cross Main River freely." The first sort of pontoon bridge from south to north Frankfurt had been established on an emergency basis across the main river. I was permitted to cross it. Otherwise, only Americans could cross it, of course. The military government issued me the pass that said I was working with the U.S. Navy. I rapidly received active support from the military government. That proved to be important later. Rajewsky was not there. There was a vacuum of power. I succeeded in getting protection for the institute from the military government. Protection meant, in effect, "Off Limits by Order of the Military Government." No one but authorized personnel were permitted inside.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was there a danger of squatters or looters? </p>
+
Was there a danger of squatters or looters?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. The people who worked in camps — Polish, Russians, French, including those in the I.G. Farbenwerken — were released from those camps and were roaming through the cities. Indeed, lots of houses were plundered. </p>
+
Yes. The people who worked in camps — Polish, Russians, French, including those in the I.G. Farbenwerken — were released from those camps and were roaming through the cities. Indeed, lots of houses were plundered.  
  
 
=== American Interest in German Research  ===
 
=== American Interest in German Research  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did things go after that? Did it take a long time before the university started functioning again? </p>
+
How did things go after that? Did it take a long time before the university started functioning again?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The university started functioning a year later, in 'forty-six. In the meantime, Rajewsky returned. He used his influence to introduce me to a number of people, including some important heads of some banks in Frankfurt. He appointed me acting Director of the Frankfurt Institute. Since he was a Party member, he could not act as the institute Director until his political record was cleared. He anticipated the lengthy process which proved to take something like two or three years. He appointed me as acting director of Max Planck Institute in Frankfurt, and a friend of mine to the smaller institute, which was close to nearby Giessen. During that time, I received many visits from commissions of scientists and technicians. </p>
+
The university started functioning a year later, in 'forty-six. In the meantime, Rajewsky returned. He used his influence to introduce me to a number of people, including some important heads of some banks in Frankfurt. He appointed me acting Director of the Frankfurt Institute. Since he was a Party member, he could not act as the institute Director until his political record was cleared. He anticipated the lengthy process which proved to take something like two or three years. He appointed me as acting director of Max Planck Institute in Frankfurt, and a friend of mine to the smaller institute, which was close to nearby Giessen. During that time, I received many visits from commissions of scientists and technicians.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were they American and British scientists? </p>
+
Were they American and British scientists?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>They were primarily American, but also some British. Initially, while the war was still going, they were very much concerned about what was going on in the institute since the institute was primarily known for its scientific publications and its expertise in ionizing radiation fields. The Americans worried very much about the German [[Nuclear Bombs|atomic bomb]] project, of course. They were strongly interested in the institute. Indeed, the institute had been bombed several times. </p>
+
They were primarily American, but also some British. Initially, while the war was still going, they were very much concerned about what was going on in the institute since the institute was primarily known for its scientific publications and its expertise in ionizing radiation fields. The Americans worried very much about the German [[Nuclear Bombs|atomic bomb]] project, of course. They were strongly interested in the institute. Indeed, the institute had been bombed several times.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It had been targeted because it was thought that it was part of an atom bomb project? </p>
+
It had been targeted because it was thought that it was part of an atom bomb project?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I believe so. I don't know the details. During the war, Rajewsky got major equipment installed. For example, they intended to install a huge accelerator in a rather tall, new structure in Frankfurt. </p>
+
Yes. I believe so. I don't know the details. During the war, Rajewsky got major equipment installed. For example, they intended to install a huge accelerator in a rather tall, new structure in Frankfurt.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was this a Van de Graaff accelerator? </p>
+
Was this a Van de Graaff accelerator?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was not a Van de Graaff but a similar instrument. It was a three-step transformer set-up that produced three million volts and required a high structure. Of course the Allied Forces frequently conducted air inspections over Germany. They must have noticed the structure and from our publications knew what expertise was there. They must have asked themselves, "What's going on there?" A rather small attack took place over southern Frankfurt. Clearly that building was marked. It was hit and destroyed. The Americans sent many commissions and collected information. I offered the Allies information about the high-frequency work, and the snorkel. </p>
+
It was not a Van de Graaff but a similar instrument. It was a three-step transformer set-up that produced three million volts and required a high structure. Of course the Allied Forces frequently conducted air inspections over Germany. They must have noticed the structure and from our publications knew what expertise was there. They must have asked themselves, "What's going on there?" A rather small attack took place over southern Frankfurt. Clearly that building was marked. It was hit and destroyed. The Americans sent many commissions and collected information. I offered the Allies information about the high-frequency work, and the snorkel.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You wanted to cooperate fully? </p>
+
You wanted to cooperate fully?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oh, absolutely! Yes, I had been waiting for the Americans for a long time now. </p>
+
Oh, absolutely! Yes, I had been waiting for the Americans for a long time now.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did some of the people at the institute not want to cooperate fully? </p>
+
Did some of the people at the institute not want to cooperate fully?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>There may have been a few. I divided the Germans into three groups. First there were the convinced anti-Nazis, to which I belonged. Then there were the convinced radical Nazis. Lastly, there were people that could be either influenced one way or the other, depending on who held the power, which in any population is a significant fraction. The anti-Nazis, of course, fully cooperated. The third group cooperated right away as well. The staunch Nazis were more reluctant, of course. </p>
+
There may have been a few. I divided the Germans into three groups. First there were the convinced anti-Nazis, to which I belonged. Then there were the convinced radical Nazis. Lastly, there were people that could be either influenced one way or the other, depending on who held the power, which in any population is a significant fraction. The anti-Nazis, of course, fully cooperated. The third group cooperated right away as well. The staunch Nazis were more reluctant, of course.  
  
 
=== Emigration to United States  ===
 
=== Emigration to United States  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p><flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 2.mp3</flashmp3></p>
+
<flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 2.mp3</flashmp3>
  
<p>Were the British and American scientists mainly interested in the "swamp" project that you worked on? </p>
+
Were the British and American scientists mainly interested in the "swamp" project that you worked on?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Primarily, but not exclusively. As time advanced, other people came with biophysical backgrounds. For example, a lieutenant in the Navy, David Goldman, was a biophysicist who had gotten his Ph.D. degree under K. S. Cole, the same Cole I mentioned before, who had done such pioneering work on dielectric properties of biological materials. By that time we had built advanced instrumentation for the study of dielectric properties. Goldman visited the institute several times, and I talked with him. Some months later, perhaps as a consequence of those visits, I was offered the opportunity to come to this country under unusually favorable circumstances. One day another lieutenant came to me, and said something like "Here is a contract. Think it over. I won't put any pressure on you. I'll come back after a week, and you can tell me if you'd like to accept it or not." The contract specified that I would be transported for half a year to the United States and back. Quarters in the United States and aboard ship would be that of a junior officer. I would be on leave from the university. My salary would continue to be paid in Germany at double the previous rate. In the United States I would get free lodging and food in the officers' canteen, and a per diem of $61d, or nearly two hundred dollars a month. The offer was too good to believe, so I accepted. </p>
+
Primarily, but not exclusively. As time advanced, other people came with biophysical backgrounds. For example, a lieutenant in the Navy, David Goldman, was a biophysicist who had gotten his Ph.D. degree under K. S. Cole, the same Cole I mentioned before, who had done such pioneering work on dielectric properties of biological materials. By that time we had built advanced instrumentation for the study of dielectric properties. Goldman visited the institute several times, and I talked with him. Some months later, perhaps as a consequence of those visits, I was offered the opportunity to come to this country under unusually favorable circumstances. One day another lieutenant came to me, and said something like "Here is a contract. Think it over. I won't put any pressure on you. I'll come back after a week, and you can tell me if you'd like to accept it or not." The contract specified that I would be transported for half a year to the United States and back. Quarters in the United States and aboard ship would be that of a junior officer. I would be on leave from the university. My salary would continue to be paid in Germany at double the previous rate. In the United States I would get free lodging and food in the officers' canteen, and a per diem of $61d, or nearly two hundred dollars a month. The offer was too good to believe, so I accepted.  
  
<p>That was in 'forty-seven. I came in late August 'forty-seven to the Naval Medical Equipment Laboratory in Philadelphia with the intent of returning half a year later to Germany. Then, to my great surprise, several good things happened to me. After all the fears and suffering in Germany, I experienced a great deal of very pleasant events. The Navy informed me they would like me to work on some projects only part of the time. The rest of the time I would have the privilege of working on projects of my choice, provided they approved. Other Germans who worked for the Navy got the same privilege. We all wrote research proposals. They were checked by colleagues at other institutions. Typically, my proposal was evaluated by scientists at M.I.T., the University of Pennsylvania and the Navy. I made trips to M.I.T., and to Penn. Of the three German proposals submitted from my laboratory, mine was the only one accepted. When state-of-the-art instrumentation became available after the war, I proposed to start a sweeping study of electric and acoustic properties of biological materials and to determine relevant mechanisms. I hoped to extend the range of frequencies to much higher and much lower frequencies than ever used before. I started my work with the Navy, and some years thereafter I got an offer from Penn in 1950. The Navy permitted me to take the equipment I'd constructed to the University of Pennsylvania. </p>
+
That was in 'forty-seven. I came in late August 'forty-seven to the Naval Medical Equipment Laboratory in Philadelphia with the intent of returning half a year later to Germany. Then, to my great surprise, several good things happened to me. After all the fears and suffering in Germany, I experienced a great deal of very pleasant events. The Navy informed me they would like me to work on some projects only part of the time. The rest of the time I would have the privilege of working on projects of my choice, provided they approved. Other Germans who worked for the Navy got the same privilege. We all wrote research proposals. They were checked by colleagues at other institutions. Typically, my proposal was evaluated by scientists at M.I.T., the University of Pennsylvania and the Navy. I made trips to M.I.T., and to Penn. Of the three German proposals submitted from my laboratory, mine was the only one accepted. When state-of-the-art instrumentation became available after the war, I proposed to start a sweeping study of electric and acoustic properties of biological materials and to determine relevant mechanisms. I hoped to extend the range of frequencies to much higher and much lower frequencies than ever used before. I started my work with the Navy, and some years thereafter I got an offer from Penn in 1950. The Navy permitted me to take the equipment I'd constructed to the University of Pennsylvania.  
  
<p>When the Navy renewed their offer after my first six months had expired, I accepted because they promised me the opportunity to set up a long-range research program. I changed my mind. I went back to Germany in 1948 and closed down whatever I had there on a permanent basis, and decided to stay in the United States for a longer period of time. </p>
+
When the Navy renewed their offer after my first six months had expired, I accepted because they promised me the opportunity to set up a long-range research program. I changed my mind. I went back to Germany in 1948 and closed down whatever I had there on a permanent basis, and decided to stay in the United States for a longer period of time.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Until then, you had imagined that you would continue at Frankfurt or perhaps some other German academic setting in biophysics, doing the same kind of research? </p>
+
Until then, you had imagined that you would continue at Frankfurt or perhaps some other German academic setting in biophysics, doing the same kind of research?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, that's right. </p>
+
Yes, that's right.  
  
 
=== FIAT Reports  ===
 
=== FIAT Reports  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Before asking you about your work in Philadelphia, I'd like to ask you about your work on the FIAT reports. How did that come about? </p>
+
Before asking you about your work in Philadelphia, I'd like to ask you about your work on the FIAT reports. How did that come about?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>A commission suggested that people at the institute — particularly me — write such reports. </p>
+
A commission suggested that people at the institute — particularly me — write such reports.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That was so that scientists elsewhere could learn what work had been done in Germany during the war? </p>
+
That was so that scientists elsewhere could learn what work had been done in Germany during the war?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I don't know precisely what the purpose was. I believe the reports were written under the auspices of the U.S. Department of Commerce. FIAT means Field Information Agency, Technical. I think their primary purpose was for the Americans to learn what was going on in industry and in science. I don't know how the information was dispersed in America. But I know that my longest report with the theoretical portion of my second doctoral work was distributed in the U.S. During my first interview at the University of Pennsylvania at the Engineering School, I noticed that a colleague had one copy of my report there on his desk. [Chuckling.] They also adopted the technology I had developed. </p>
+
I don't know precisely what the purpose was. I believe the reports were written under the auspices of the U.S. Department of Commerce. FIAT means Field Information Agency, Technical. I think their primary purpose was for the Americans to learn what was going on in industry and in science. I don't know how the information was dispersed in America. But I know that my longest report with the theoretical portion of my second doctoral work was distributed in the U.S. During my first interview at the University of Pennsylvania at the Engineering School, I noticed that a colleague had one copy of my report there on his desk. [Chuckling.] They also adopted the technology I had developed.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>One viewpoint on what happened right after the war is that the Americans and the Soviets competed at plundering German scientific know-how and, in some cases, appropriated equipment. How did it appear to you? </p>
+
One viewpoint on what happened right after the war is that the Americans and the Soviets competed at plundering German scientific know-how and, in some cases, appropriated equipment. How did it appear to you?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Well, I mentioned the Americans made me an offer with almost unbelievably favorable circumstances. I would have been a fool not to accept. Germany had been isolated scientifically since the Nazis came to power. Here I had a chance to catch up in knowledge again, and hopefully do some good work. As it turned out, I could practically write my own ticket. I didn't feel coerced at all. I felt very privileged, very privileged, at that. Others were not so lucky. Not every German proposal was accepted, and a number returned to Germany. I would say I was an unusual case. The majority of the Germans who came over under the so-called "Paper Clip Program" were military scientists. Von Braun's group. There was the rocket group, the [[Jet Engine|jet engine people]], etcetera. I think that there were several major groups. The jet engine had been successfully developed in Germany to a high state of perfection. The rocket group and the airplane design people worked on similarly well-defined projects. Most of those scientists were technically oriented. So the more basic scientists, like myself, were in a minority. Most of those who went back to Germany were elderly academic people. Those who worked on rockets and the jet engines had no chance, being elderly at that, to return to Germany later on. They stayed in this country. A number of the younger scientists with more basic interests returned. I guess that between one-third and forty percent returned, particularly those who could not set up their own research programs as I was privileged to do. </p>
+
Well, I mentioned the Americans made me an offer with almost unbelievably favorable circumstances. I would have been a fool not to accept. Germany had been isolated scientifically since the Nazis came to power. Here I had a chance to catch up in knowledge again, and hopefully do some good work. As it turned out, I could practically write my own ticket. I didn't feel coerced at all. I felt very privileged, very privileged, at that. Others were not so lucky. Not every German proposal was accepted, and a number returned to Germany. I would say I was an unusual case. The majority of the Germans who came over under the so-called "Paper Clip Program" were military scientists. Von Braun's group. There was the rocket group, the [[Jet Engine|jet engine people]], etcetera. I think that there were several major groups. The jet engine had been successfully developed in Germany to a high state of perfection. The rocket group and the airplane design people worked on similarly well-defined projects. Most of those scientists were technically oriented. So the more basic scientists, like myself, were in a minority. Most of those who went back to Germany were elderly academic people. Those who worked on rockets and the jet engines had no chance, being elderly at that, to return to Germany later on. They stayed in this country. A number of the younger scientists with more basic interests returned. I guess that between one-third and forty percent returned, particularly those who could not set up their own research programs as I was privileged to do.  
  
 
=== Habilitation Work on Instrumentation  ===
 
=== Habilitation Work on Instrumentation  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Could you tell me about your Habilitation? Was that entirely independent work? </p>
+
Could you tell me about your Habilitation? Was that entirely independent work?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. It was primarily a discussion of my work on developing high-frequency technologies. I had to develop precision techniques for measuring the dielectric properties of highly conducting materials during the war. After the war was over, as I got my instrumentation together again in Frankfurt, I started right away to measure biological stuff. You see, some materials which I measured during the war had a certain similarity with biological materials in that they are very highly conducting materials. They have a dielectric constant and are highly conductive. Rajewsky and I were to publish a paper on the dielectric properties of blood in the frequency range one-tenth to one gigahertz. That paper was noticed here at the University of Pennsylvania and made me known in this country as well as in Germany. </p>
+
Yes. It was primarily a discussion of my work on developing high-frequency technologies. I had to develop precision techniques for measuring the dielectric properties of highly conducting materials during the war. After the war was over, as I got my instrumentation together again in Frankfurt, I started right away to measure biological stuff. You see, some materials which I measured during the war had a certain similarity with biological materials in that they are very highly conducting materials. They have a dielectric constant and are highly conductive. Rajewsky and I were to publish a paper on the dielectric properties of blood in the frequency range one-tenth to one gigahertz. That paper was noticed here at the University of Pennsylvania and made me known in this country as well as in Germany.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Because of your technical background in this instrumentation that you'd developed during the war you had a great advantage over most researchers in biophysics? </p>
+
Because of your technical background in this instrumentation that you'd developed during the war you had a great advantage over most researchers in biophysics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No doubt about it. </p>
+
No doubt about it.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>But the habilitation was reporting results on biological materials? </p>
+
But the habilitation was reporting results on biological materials?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. It was on measuring technique. Condoning the dielectric properties of conducting materials, especially biological materials. But the technique could apply just as well to other materials. </p>
+
No. It was on measuring technique. Condoning the dielectric properties of conducting materials, especially biological materials. But the technique could apply just as well to other materials.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It was more the instrumentation than — </p>
+
It was more the instrumentation than —  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. All the chapters are concerned with instrumentation and development. </p>
+
Yes. All the chapters are concerned with instrumentation and development.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Your degree is listed as a doctorate in physics and biophysics. </p>
+
Your degree is listed as a doctorate in physics and biophysics.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Why is that? </p>
+
Why is that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>At the time it was decided that I should get a combined title. I have to explain a little bit more about this. I call it a Ph.D., but there is no real equivalent to my Dr. Habil. in the United States. </p>
+
At the time it was decided that I should get a combined title. I have to explain a little bit more about this. I call it a Ph.D., but there is no real equivalent to my Dr. Habil. in the United States.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Right. It doesn't exist here. </p>
+
Right. It doesn't exist here.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It doesn't exist in this country. The Dr. Habil. is an advanced doctorate degree. Once you have gotten your Ph.D., and continue to do scientific work over a period of five years, you could apply for it. You could not get it faster than five years after your Ph.D. By that time, you are supposed to write a thesis of a more advanced type than your Ph.D. thesis. In addition you are supposed to document that you have established at least a national reputation in your field of specialization. Once you have accomplished that, you are permitted to apply to become a so-called "docent," which is roughly the same thing as an assistant professor. I say often that I became an assistant professor in 1946. I became a docent. You can teach at the university where you become docent. As a matter of fact, you are supposed to teach at least one course. In America, you can become an assistant professor right after you get a Ph.D.. It wasn't that way in Germany. You had to develop further before you got that privilege. The German and American systems are different. In American departments we have many professors — full professors, associate professors, assistant professors. In a German department there is one boss the full professor. There may be one or two associate professors and a few assistant professors, but only the department chairman could become a full professor. The pyramid was steeper and the base was smaller in a German institute at that time. So that may be the reason to make it more difficult to get up the pyramid structure. </p>
+
It doesn't exist in this country. The Dr. Habil. is an advanced doctorate degree. Once you have gotten your Ph.D., and continue to do scientific work over a period of five years, you could apply for it. You could not get it faster than five years after your Ph.D. By that time, you are supposed to write a thesis of a more advanced type than your Ph.D. thesis. In addition you are supposed to document that you have established at least a national reputation in your field of specialization. Once you have accomplished that, you are permitted to apply to become a so-called "docent," which is roughly the same thing as an assistant professor. I say often that I became an assistant professor in 1946. I became a docent. You can teach at the university where you become docent. As a matter of fact, you are supposed to teach at least one course. In America, you can become an assistant professor right after you get a Ph.D.. It wasn't that way in Germany. You had to develop further before you got that privilege. The German and American systems are different. In American departments we have many professors — full professors, associate professors, assistant professors. In a German department there is one boss the full professor. There may be one or two associate professors and a few assistant professors, but only the department chairman could become a full professor. The pyramid was steeper and the base was smaller in a German institute at that time. So that may be the reason to make it more difficult to get up the pyramid structure.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You taught at the university then? </p>
+
You taught at the university then?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Once, yes. I did. But I taught only a brief period of time. I got the Dr. Habil. degree in 'forty-six, and in 'forty-seven I came to this country. </p>
+
Once, yes. I did. But I taught only a brief period of time. I got the Dr. Habil. degree in 'forty-six, and in 'forty-seven I came to this country.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you teach biophysics? </p>
+
Did you teach biophysics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I did for one semester. I was on leave from the University of Frankfurt as a faculty member from 1947 to 1955. In 1955 I gave it up. They kept me on the faculty without pay, all that time, in case I decided to return. </p>
+
Yes. I did for one semester. I was on leave from the University of Frankfurt as a faculty member from 1947 to 1955. In 1955 I gave it up. They kept me on the faculty without pay, all that time, in case I decided to return.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Is a docent similar to a tenured position? </p>
+
Is a docent similar to a tenured position?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Once you are a docent, you have entered the academic career. </p>
+
Once you are a docent, you have entered the academic career.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You mentioned two other docents, I think from Frankfurt, who also came to this country at about the same time. </p>
+
You mentioned two other docents, I think from Frankfurt, who also came to this country at about the same time.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>From the institute. </p>
+
From the institute.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Right, from the institute. Were those similar circumstances? </p>
+
Right, from the institute. Were those similar circumstances?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Well, yes and no. They came about a year later. One worked with the Army at Knoxville, and the other one joined the naval facilities in Pensacola, Florida. But they did not establish much contact with universities. They stayed with the Army or the Navy, respectively. </p>
+
Well, yes and no. They came about a year later. One worked with the Army at Knoxville, and the other one joined the naval facilities in Pensacola, Florida. But they did not establish much contact with universities. They stayed with the Army or the Navy, respectively.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Both of them stayed in this country? </p>
+
Both of them stayed in this country?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
 
=== 1941 Biophysics Conference  ===
 
=== 1941 Biophysics Conference  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I wanted to ask you about what you suggest may be the first Biophysics Conference, a conference that took place in 1941 in Oberschlema and Joachimsthal. Can you tell me how that came about? </p>
+
I wanted to ask you about what you suggest may be the first Biophysics Conference, a conference that took place in 1941 in Oberschlema and Joachimsthal. Can you tell me how that came about?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Rajewsky was interested in founding a biophysical society. To accomplish this, it's a good thing to organize a first meeting. He found support from a number of other biophysicists in Germany, including I.Timofeeff-Ressovsky, a Russian colleague of his then working in Germany. </p>
+
Rajewsky was interested in founding a biophysical society. To accomplish this, it's a good thing to organize a first meeting. He found support from a number of other biophysicists in Germany, including I.Timofeeff-Ressovsky, a Russian colleague of his then working in Germany.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Where was he working? </p>
+
Where was he working?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Timofeeff-Ressovsky worked at what is now a Max Planck Institute in Berlin-Buch, which is a district of Berlin. He was a well-known geneticist with strong biophysical interests. He had a decent background in physics, and was an enthusiastic supporter of the idea of a biophysical society. </p>
+
Timofeeff-Ressovsky worked at what is now a Max Planck Institute in Berlin-Buch, which is a district of Berlin. He was a well-known geneticist with strong biophysical interests. He had a decent background in physics, and was an enthusiastic supporter of the idea of a biophysical society.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>The clear purpose was to form a society? This was the first gathering of those people? How many people attended, would you guess? </p>
+
The clear purpose was to form a society? This was the first gathering of those people? How many people attended, would you guess?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not many. I would say about fifty. </p>
+
Not many. I would say about fifty.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How many were from the Frankfurt Institute? </p>
+
How many were from the Frankfurt Institute?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Perhaps six or eight were from the Frankfurt Institute. </p>
+
Perhaps six or eight were from the Frankfurt Institute.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What about the satellite institutes Rajewsky had set up? </p>
+
What about the satellite institutes Rajewsky had set up?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>At that time there was only one. It was in Oberschlema. </p>
+
At that time there was only one. It was in Oberschlema.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were there any other sizable groups doing biophysics? </p>
+
Were there any other sizable groups doing biophysics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oh, yes. There were no other formal biophysics institutes, but there were laboratories and subdivisions of departments doing biophysical research. In particular I remember there was a small group in Berlin. There was a group in Freiburg. A variety of groups conducted biophysical research. There was a group also in Munich. </p>
+
Oh, yes. There were no other formal biophysics institutes, but there were laboratories and subdivisions of departments doing biophysical research. In particular I remember there was a small group in Berlin. There was a group in Freiburg. A variety of groups conducted biophysical research. There was a group also in Munich.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>This was in the second half of 'forty-one? Was it still pretty much business as usual for these researchers? </p>
+
This was in the second half of 'forty-one? Was it still pretty much business as usual for these researchers?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>By and large, as long as we were not drafted. We could do what we wanted. It was amazing! That condition continued to exist right until the aftermath of Stalingrad. </p>
+
By and large, as long as we were not drafted. We could do what we wanted. It was amazing! That condition continued to exist right until the aftermath of Stalingrad.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Weren't there problems bringing these people together? Many of them must have had to travel some distance to the meeting place? </p>
+
Weren't there problems bringing these people together? Many of them must have had to travel some distance to the meeting place?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>We didn't experience many problems. Once the meeting was postponed by a month. I don't know if you read that in the article. </p>
+
We didn't experience many problems. Once the meeting was postponed by a month. I don't know if you read that in the article.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Yes, I read that. </p>
+
Yes, I read that.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It took place at the same time as the Barbarossa campaign took place, of course. But it wasn't too bad. Things worked well until late November when Hitler was stopped at the gates of Moscow. </p>
+
It took place at the same time as the Barbarossa campaign took place, of course. But it wasn't too bad. Things worked well until late November when Hitler was stopped at the gates of Moscow.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You say in the article that the effects of ionizing radiation were a primary topic of that conference. </p>
+
You say in the article that the effects of ionizing radiation were a primary topic of that conference.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes.<ref>The branch institute in Oberschlema was primarily intended to study the effects of radioactive materials on man. Oberschlema and Joachimsthal were both part of a large mining district where Madame Curie had obtained her pitchblende for the production of radium. Many miners died at a young age, and it was suspected that their death resulted from undue exposure to the high radon levels existing in the mines. After World War II, the mines were operated by the Russians and became their main supply of weapons-grade uranium for their nuclear bombs.</ref> </p>
+
Yes.<ref>The branch institute in Oberschlema was primarily intended to study the effects of radioactive materials on man. Oberschlema and Joachimsthal were both part of a large mining district where Madame Curie had obtained her pitchblende for the production of radium. Many miners died at a young age, and it was suspected that their death resulted from undue exposure to the high radon levels existing in the mines. After World War II, the mines were operated by the Russians and became their main supply of weapons-grade uranium for their nuclear bombs.</ref>  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you remember other matters that were discussed there? </p>
+
Can you remember other matters that were discussed there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I believe I gave a brief talk, and one of my friends — the man who went to Pensacola — gave a talk about biological effects of diathermy and what was then known of dielectric properties. </p>
+
I believe I gave a brief talk, and one of my friends — the man who went to Pensacola — gave a talk about biological effects of diathermy and what was then known of dielectric properties.  
  
 
=== Diathermy  ===
 
=== Diathermy  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was diathermy a clinical practice at the time? </p>
+
Was diathermy a clinical practice at the time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Oh, yes. Diathermic techniques were emerging very strongly in the 1930s, if not already in the 'twenties. They are still in use today. They declined in use when modern chemical treatments such as the sulfa drugs and then the penicillins and the other antibacterial drugs came into use. </p>
+
Oh, yes. Diathermic techniques were emerging very strongly in the 1930s, if not already in the 'twenties. They are still in use today. They declined in use when modern chemical treatments such as the sulfa drugs and then the penicillins and the other antibacterial drugs came into use.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How much of your work was directed toward understanding or improving diathermy? </p>
+
How much of your work was directed toward understanding or improving diathermy?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I would say my interest was split between the biological effects of electric fields and the determination of electric properties — and remained so through much of my life. </p>
+
I would say my interest was split between the biological effects of electric fields and the determination of electric properties — and remained so through much of my life.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was your principal motivation for work on the determination of electrical properties — conductance and so forth? </p>
+
What was your principal motivation for work on the determination of electrical properties — conductance and so forth?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>If you want to understand the interaction of electricity with the human body or any biological material, you must know, first of all, the electric properties. Without knowing the electric properties, you don't know what current is induced by a certain electrical field. </p>
+
If you want to understand the interaction of electricity with the human body or any biological material, you must know, first of all, the electric properties. Without knowing the electric properties, you don't know what current is induced by a certain electrical field.  
  
 
=== Biophysics and Bioengineering  ===
 
=== Biophysics and Bioengineering  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you also working on understanding interactions of biological materials with electromagnetic fields? </p>
+
Were you also working on understanding interactions of biological materials with electromagnetic fields?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. There were some very early beginnings. I became aware of work which had been conducted in the late 'thirties in Vienna. One scientist there tried to develop a theory to explain so-called pearl-chain formation, which is the alignment of particles in a high-frequency field. This later on became very important in biotechnology, for example. This primitive theory attracted my attention at that time. It was 'thirty-eight already. Interest in the biological effects of electrical fields was generated almost simultaneously with the interest in electric properties. Both things go hand in hand. </p>
+
Yes. There were some very early beginnings. I became aware of work which had been conducted in the late 'thirties in Vienna. One scientist there tried to develop a theory to explain so-called pearl-chain formation, which is the alignment of particles in a high-frequency field. This later on became very important in biotechnology, for example. This primitive theory attracted my attention at that time. It was 'thirty-eight already. Interest in the biological effects of electrical fields was generated almost simultaneously with the interest in electric properties. Both things go hand in hand.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I gather that you were most innovative in the instrumentation in this area? </p>
+
I gather that you were most innovative in the instrumentation in this area?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I made major advances in instrumentation, yes. I began my work in Germany, but I did most of the work after I came to this country. </p>
+
I made major advances in instrumentation, yes. I began my work in Germany, but I did most of the work after I came to this country.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You say also in the article that there was, in fact, the formation of a biophysical society in 1943. What were the activities of this society? </p>
+
You say also in the article that there was, in fact, the formation of a biophysical society in 1943. What were the activities of this society?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>We primarily conducted organizational meetings. Not many meetings took place during the war. Immediately after the war, meetings started up again. Traveling became more and more difficult after Stalingrad. After the initial meeting, not much happened for the remainder of the war. But after the Second World War it started right away again with a series of meetings in or near Frankfurt. </p>
+
We primarily conducted organizational meetings. Not many meetings took place during the war. Immediately after the war, meetings started up again. Traveling became more and more difficult after Stalingrad. After the initial meeting, not much happened for the remainder of the war. But after the Second World War it started right away again with a series of meetings in or near Frankfurt.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Right about this time, I think it was 1944, Erwin Schrödinger published ''What Is Life?''. That book attracted a number of physicists to biology with the promise that physics could offer explanations of biological phenomena. Were you aware of that publication at the time? </p>
+
Right about this time, I think it was 1944, Erwin Schrödinger published ''What Is Life?''. That book attracted a number of physicists to biology with the promise that physics could offer explanations of biological phenomena. Were you aware of that publication at the time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not immediately. Yes. I certainly became aware of Schrödinger book, eventually. </p>
+
Not immediately. Yes. I certainly became aware of Schrödinger book, eventually.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was there a feeling among the biophysicists in Germany at that time that this was a field with great promise? Or was it more that there were certain well established areas — radiology and so on — where physics had a role? </p>
+
Was there a feeling among the biophysicists in Germany at that time that this was a field with great promise? Or was it more that there were certain well established areas — radiology and so on — where physics had a role?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. By that time, of course, my view of the field had become much more detailed than it had been originally. When I was first approached about biophysics, I thought that you couldn't mix physics with biological material. As I became aware of what was happening in electrophysiology and the ionizing radiation field, my ideas changed. I began to believe that we were now at the threshold of more to come of this sort. A consequence of my being at Frankfurt and coming to the States was that I went a step further than Rajewsky. I became interested in something which appeared perhaps ridiculous at first. I wanted to do physics of biological objects. This seemed revolutionary to me. In other words, I was not primarily motivated to study the effects of x-rays since x-rays are good for cancer treatment. And the side effects you get and so on. I was not interested primarily in questions raised by medical people or biologists. I wanted to look at the complicated life matter with a physicist's eye, and simply ask myself, "Can I, as a physicist, do what physicists have done through history?" </p>
+
Yes. By that time, of course, my view of the field had become much more detailed than it had been originally. When I was first approached about biophysics, I thought that you couldn't mix physics with biological material. As I became aware of what was happening in electrophysiology and the ionizing radiation field, my ideas changed. I began to believe that we were now at the threshold of more to come of this sort. A consequence of my being at Frankfurt and coming to the States was that I went a step further than Rajewsky. I became interested in something which appeared perhaps ridiculous at first. I wanted to do physics of biological objects. This seemed revolutionary to me. In other words, I was not primarily motivated to study the effects of x-rays since x-rays are good for cancer treatment. And the side effects you get and so on. I was not interested primarily in questions raised by medical people or biologists. I wanted to look at the complicated life matter with a physicist's eye, and simply ask myself, "Can I, as a physicist, do what physicists have done through history?"  
  
<p>Physicists have done essentially two things: they have studied matter — gaseous, fluids and the solid state. And they try to understand the structure of matter. Once they understood the structure of matter, they knew how energy interacted with matter. They studied how radiation is absorbed. Today they understand the composition of matter down to the subatomic size. As I said, only a few had done systematic research of the sort with biological materials. In the United States I set out and formulated a broad program to study the properties of biological matter and the interaction of energy with biological matter over a much wider frequency range than done before. </p>
+
Physicists have done essentially two things: they have studied matter — gaseous, fluids and the solid state. And they try to understand the structure of matter. Once they understood the structure of matter, they knew how energy interacted with matter. They studied how radiation is absorbed. Today they understand the composition of matter down to the subatomic size. As I said, only a few had done systematic research of the sort with biological materials. In the United States I set out and formulated a broad program to study the properties of biological matter and the interaction of energy with biological matter over a much wider frequency range than done before.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were interested in electromagnetic fields and acoustics energy forms? </p>
+
You were interested in electromagnetic fields and acoustics energy forms?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Primarily. Yes. </p>
+
Primarily. Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>So you directed your studies to the properties and relevant interactions with those fields? </p>
+
So you directed your studies to the properties and relevant interactions with those fields?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Precisely. My intellectual roots go back to Frankfurt, and even to Göttingen. But this conception of doing biophysics — not motivated as coming from the medical world or from the biologists — was perhaps new. Some of my early colleagues at the medical school at Pennsylvania claimed it to be heresy. They couldn't see it at all. </p>
+
Precisely. My intellectual roots go back to Frankfurt, and even to Göttingen. But this conception of doing biophysics — not motivated as coming from the medical world or from the biologists — was perhaps new. Some of my early colleagues at the medical school at Pennsylvania claimed it to be heresy. They couldn't see it at all.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Yes. "Biophysics" is an ambiguous term, as is the term "biomedical engineering." One might look at most of your publications and say that it's the work of a biophysicist. Yet I know from your work that your engineering background and training is crucial to your work. </p>
+
Yes. "Biophysics" is an ambiguous term, as is the term "biomedical engineering." One might look at most of your publications and say that it's the work of a biophysicist. Yet I know from your work that your engineering background and training is crucial to your work.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Right. </p>
+
Yes. Right.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>But maybe this is the time to ask how you regard yourself. Do you think of yourself primarily as a biophysicist or as an engineer? </p>
+
But maybe this is the time to ask how you regard yourself. Do you think of yourself primarily as a biophysicist or as an engineer?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Both. I clearly studied both sides of the field. I contributed to the theoretical as well as the applied field of biophysics. For example, consider my work which relates to the hazards of microwaves. That problem belongs more to bioengineering than biophysics. Of course the more basic part about the origin of properties is considered more biophysical. Engineering strongly influenced instrumentation development, practical applications, and even some of the acoustics work. I've been very active in the emergence of bioengineering in this country on an administrative as well as a scientific level. I participated in the [[IEEE History|IEEE]], the [[AIEE History 1884-1963|AIEE]], [[IRE History 1912-1963|IRE]], and many government committees. I was very active in promoting bioengineering training. We were the first biomedical Ph.D. program in the country. </p>
+
Both. I clearly studied both sides of the field. I contributed to the theoretical as well as the applied field of biophysics. For example, consider my work which relates to the hazards of microwaves. That problem belongs more to bioengineering than biophysics. Of course the more basic part about the origin of properties is considered more biophysical. Engineering strongly influenced instrumentation development, practical applications, and even some of the acoustics work. I've been very active in the emergence of bioengineering in this country on an administrative as well as a scientific level. I participated in the [[IEEE History|IEEE]], the [[AIEE History 1884-1963|AIEE]], [[IRE History 1912-1963|IRE]], and many government committees. I was very active in promoting bioengineering training. We were the first biomedical Ph.D. program in the country.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Bioengineering, as I said, is ambiguous. One style is that you use engineering expertise to investigate biological phenomena. That's mainly a matter of instrumentation. In another kind of bioengineering, you use engineering expertise to build some device — prosthesis or some other device — that may replace or serve in place of biological functions. How do you define the field of bioengineering, or biomedical engineering? </p>
+
Bioengineering, as I said, is ambiguous. One style is that you use engineering expertise to investigate biological phenomena. That's mainly a matter of instrumentation. In another kind of bioengineering, you use engineering expertise to build some device — prosthesis or some other device — that may replace or serve in place of biological functions. How do you define the field of bioengineering, or biomedical engineering?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, we discussed that. Primarily during the early years when the field was being defined, terms were used interchangeably. Still, in the field of medical electronics, some people wondered. At that time, our society adopted a broader definition. I suggested "the concepts and methods of the physical and engineering sciences in biology and medicine" (Article III of Constitution, 7-19-68). That is a rather broad, yet appropriate definition.<ref> The development of special devices, such as prostheses and cardiac [[Pacemaker|pacemakers]], has indeed captured the public attention as representative of biomedical engineering. Less visibility, understandably, exists for its more basic contributions. The mechanism of vision, hazards due to non-ionizing radiation, electrode studies (electrodes must be used by pacemakers and many other implanted devices), the electron microscope, and the voltage clamp technology (which was a prerequisite to finding out how nerves work) are but a few examples. Basic oriented work aids the development of devices. A typical example is ultrasound. Early recognition about the mode of propagation of ultrasound into tissues was followed by the decision to develop and market first therapeutic and then diagnostic equipment. Today ultrasound has become one of the most widely used diagnostic techniques, including cardiac echocardiography.</ref> </p>
+
Yes, we discussed that. Primarily during the early years when the field was being defined, terms were used interchangeably. Still, in the field of medical electronics, some people wondered. At that time, our society adopted a broader definition. I suggested "the concepts and methods of the physical and engineering sciences in biology and medicine" (Article III of Constitution, 7-19-68). That is a rather broad, yet appropriate definition.<ref> The development of special devices, such as prostheses and cardiac [[Pacemaker|pacemakers]], has indeed captured the public attention as representative of biomedical engineering. Less visibility, understandably, exists for its more basic contributions. The mechanism of vision, hazards due to non-ionizing radiation, electrode studies (electrodes must be used by pacemakers and many other implanted devices), the electron microscope, and the voltage clamp technology (which was a prerequisite to finding out how nerves work) are but a few examples. Basic oriented work aids the development of devices. A typical example is ultrasound. Early recognition about the mode of propagation of ultrasound into tissues was followed by the decision to develop and market first therapeutic and then diagnostic equipment. Today ultrasound has become one of the most widely used diagnostic techniques, including cardiac echocardiography.</ref>  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Bioengineering or biomedical engineering is anytime engineering skills are used in solving biological or medical problems. </p>
+
Bioengineering or biomedical engineering is anytime engineering skills are used in solving biological or medical problems.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
 
=== Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory  ===
 
=== Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In 1947 you came to this country, initially for a six-month period, to the Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory. What did you do? You said that you were given the opportunity to suggest your own research program. </p>
+
In 1947 you came to this country, initially for a six-month period, to the Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory. What did you do? You said that you were given the opportunity to suggest your own research program.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I had to work part-time on other assignments. </p>
+
Yes. I had to work part-time on other assignments.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What assignments were you given initially? </p>
+
What assignments were you given initially?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The primary assignment led to low-frequency acoustics. The Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory dealt, as the name implies, primarily with airplane medical problems for the U.S. Navy's air force. </p>
+
The primary assignment led to low-frequency acoustics. The Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory dealt, as the name implies, primarily with airplane medical problems for the U.S. Navy's air force.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>This was space medicine before people went into space. </p>
+
This was space medicine before people went into space.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Precisely. The test stands where they tested jet engines, made a terrific noise. It was just unbelievable! I got involved in developing so-called "ear defenders," things that you put in your ear. I was involved in designing them to optimally absorb the noise which could ruin your hearing if you worked on those jet engines. I was also interested in problems of hearing from a biophysical point of view. </p>
+
Precisely. The test stands where they tested jet engines, made a terrific noise. It was just unbelievable! I got involved in developing so-called "ear defenders," things that you put in your ear. I was involved in designing them to optimally absorb the noise which could ruin your hearing if you worked on those jet engines. I was also interested in problems of hearing from a biophysical point of view.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That sounds like a new line of work. Had you worked with it previously? </p>
+
That sounds like a new line of work. Had you worked with it previously?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, it was a new line of work. </p>
+
Yes, it was a new line of work.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It was a new line of work for you. </p>
+
It was a new line of work for you.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Entirely new. </p>
+
Entirely new.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It was of course based on physics. But it was not the kind of work that you were doing before. </p>
+
It was of course based on physics. But it was not the kind of work that you were doing before.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Right. </p>
+
Right.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did that work yield anything useful? </p>
+
Did that work yield anything useful?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>We developed some of the physics of ear defenders, and wrote a couple of reports. That's about all. Originally I was committed to that contract for at least fifty percent of my time. In the last years of my Navy time, I got more and more freedom. I became more and more engrossed in my own activities, and they let me do what I wanted. Letting the Germans make proposals was a very wise policy, don't you think so? I mean, you get some of them placed in your lab and you ask what can you do best? You try to evaluate their proposals and send it out to experts in the country. Based on what the experts say, the Navy would give you the means to do it. That's a good investment policy. Everyone is happy with the sort of thing.<ref>The same procedure has been used by granting agencies such as NIH and NSF for a long time. Research proposals are accepted, evaluated, and funded if judged good enough.</ref> </p>
+
We developed some of the physics of ear defenders, and wrote a couple of reports. That's about all. Originally I was committed to that contract for at least fifty percent of my time. In the last years of my Navy time, I got more and more freedom. I became more and more engrossed in my own activities, and they let me do what I wanted. Letting the Germans make proposals was a very wise policy, don't you think so? I mean, you get some of them placed in your lab and you ask what can you do best? You try to evaluate their proposals and send it out to experts in the country. Based on what the experts say, the Navy would give you the means to do it. That's a good investment policy. Everyone is happy with the sort of thing.<ref>The same procedure has been used by granting agencies such as NIH and NSF for a long time. Research proposals are accepted, evaluated, and funded if judged good enough.</ref>  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You started your own research program at the Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory? </p>
+
You started your own research program at the Aeromedical Equipment Laboratory?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. After it was approved. It had to be approved. </p>
+
Yes. After it was approved. It had to be approved.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Do you remember when approval came through? </p>
+
Do you remember when approval came through?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That was, I think, at the beginning of my second period. </p>
+
That was, I think, at the beginning of my second period.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You returned to Germany only for a brief period? </p>
+
You returned to Germany only for a brief period?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I can't remember precisely when it came through. </p>
+
Yes. I can't remember precisely when it came through.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were employed there until 1950? </p>
+
You were employed there until 1950?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You'd gotten a fair amount of equipment? </p>
+
You'd gotten a fair amount of equipment?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. As a matter of fact, while at the Navy I had already developed two abilities which had a profound influence on my later scientific work. I had learned a great deal about high-frequency technology and microwave measurements in Germany. While I was in the Navy I learned how to measure the capacitance of highly conductible materials at low frequencies. It follows from general principles that such measurement is an extremely difficult task entailing high resolution accuracy problems. I was permitted to develop an instrument that provided more accuracy than any other existing device at the time.<ref> Bridge design considerations The design of the low-frequency bridge was influenced by previous experience gained in Frankfurt. I began in Frankfurt with the construction of precision equipment covering both RF- and low frequencies. No commercial equipment was available and I had to build my own oscillators and amplifiers. I had already a relevant engineering background, and acquired additional knowledge by reading books about vacuum tubes, amplifiers and oscillator design. The shielded bridge had four compartments, one holding the sample and the other three variable electrolytic resistors. Electrolyte resistors were chosen since their capacitive properties were considered more easily controllable than those of commercial resistors. Commercially available variable resistors at the time had unknown small (but for the intended purposes very disturbing) capacitive and inductive properties. Testing the design proved disappointing. At low range frequencies, electrode polarization introduced large additional capacitive components. Their correction proved to be a nightmare, since four sources of error were involved. This work in Frankfurt stopped when I was ordered to turn my attention to the microwave area in 1943. But I had learned a lot about electrode polarization and advanced bridge design. When I designed the low-frequency equipment while working for the Navy, I decided to give up on variable electrolytic resistors. Not only did they suffer from electrode polarization, but they also were temperature sensitive. After some research, I located a manufacturer (Leeds and Northrup) willing to build a variable conductance box (with resistor elements in parallel instead of the usual series arrangement). I designed a step-up calibration procedure which permitted calibration of the reactive properties of the box over the total range of conductances with the necessary high precision needed for the intended use. The construction of the equipment took more than a year and proved satisfactory. The equipment made it possible to measure the properties of interest with the needed high accuracy. It was extensively tested with electrolytes. First measurements with muscle tissue proved that the constant membrane phase angle element predicted by Fricke and Cole apparently did not exist. Instead, an entirely new mechanism revealed itself by the observation of a new distinct "dispersion" (i.e., I observed a more steplike and distinct response instead of the constant smoother gradual change predicted by the constant phase angle concept).</ref> With this device, near the end of my Navy time, I conducted measurements of muscles and found an entirely new electric mechanism. I discovered the so-called Greek "ALPHA" relaxation mechanism. It was an entirely new type of relaxation mechanism, which has been subsequently of great interest to many people. This was unknown before. Without this instrument I would not have found it. </p>
+
Yes. As a matter of fact, while at the Navy I had already developed two abilities which had a profound influence on my later scientific work. I had learned a great deal about high-frequency technology and microwave measurements in Germany. While I was in the Navy I learned how to measure the capacitance of highly conductible materials at low frequencies. It follows from general principles that such measurement is an extremely difficult task entailing high resolution accuracy problems. I was permitted to develop an instrument that provided more accuracy than any other existing device at the time.<ref> Bridge design considerations The design of the low-frequency bridge was influenced by previous experience gained in Frankfurt. I began in Frankfurt with the construction of precision equipment covering both RF- and low frequencies. No commercial equipment was available and I had to build my own oscillators and amplifiers. I had already a relevant engineering background, and acquired additional knowledge by reading books about vacuum tubes, amplifiers and oscillator design. The shielded bridge had four compartments, one holding the sample and the other three variable electrolytic resistors. Electrolyte resistors were chosen since their capacitive properties were considered more easily controllable than those of commercial resistors. Commercially available variable resistors at the time had unknown small (but for the intended purposes very disturbing) capacitive and inductive properties. Testing the design proved disappointing. At low range frequencies, electrode polarization introduced large additional capacitive components. Their correction proved to be a nightmare, since four sources of error were involved. This work in Frankfurt stopped when I was ordered to turn my attention to the microwave area in 1943. But I had learned a lot about electrode polarization and advanced bridge design. When I designed the low-frequency equipment while working for the Navy, I decided to give up on variable electrolytic resistors. Not only did they suffer from electrode polarization, but they also were temperature sensitive. After some research, I located a manufacturer (Leeds and Northrup) willing to build a variable conductance box (with resistor elements in parallel instead of the usual series arrangement). I designed a step-up calibration procedure which permitted calibration of the reactive properties of the box over the total range of conductances with the necessary high precision needed for the intended use. The construction of the equipment took more than a year and proved satisfactory. The equipment made it possible to measure the properties of interest with the needed high accuracy. It was extensively tested with electrolytes. First measurements with muscle tissue proved that the constant membrane phase angle element predicted by Fricke and Cole apparently did not exist. Instead, an entirely new mechanism revealed itself by the observation of a new distinct "dispersion" (i.e., I observed a more steplike and distinct response instead of the constant smoother gradual change predicted by the constant phase angle concept).</ref> With this device, near the end of my Navy time, I conducted measurements of muscles and found an entirely new electric mechanism. I discovered the so-called Greek "ALPHA" relaxation mechanism. It was an entirely new type of relaxation mechanism, which has been subsequently of great interest to many people. This was unknown before. Without this instrument I would not have found it.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Does it have significance for interaction of the fields with muscle tissue? </p>
+
Does it have significance for interaction of the fields with muscle tissue?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes and no. Its significance is not directly related to interaction. It is important to understand relaxation mechanisms on a fundamental level.<ref> Later, in 1964, Fatt and Falk in England confirmed the effect and suggested that the tubular system of muscle cells caused the relaxation effect. They also suggested that it directly relates to the mechanism of muscle contraction, an important problem still not entirely resolved.</ref> We demonstrated later on that the same effect is true for all colloidal systems and suspension of particles. The relaxation mechanism became of great interest in physical chemistry. The effect relates and characterizes the charge distribution on particles, caused by surfactants, i.e. materials which coat a particle to keep them in suspension. The primary importance of that discovery relates to the understanding of sedimentation, coagulation of solutions and stability of solutions. Our research had an effect on the chemical industry from a practical point of view, and increased our knowledge of the biophysical properties of biological cells and tissues.<ref> The low frequency dispersion found by us was subsequently also observed with minerals. Understanding of the electrical properties of earth and minerals directly relates to the ability to locate oil and other valuable deposits by electrical means.</ref> </p>
+
Yes and no. Its significance is not directly related to interaction. It is important to understand relaxation mechanisms on a fundamental level.<ref> Later, in 1964, Fatt and Falk in England confirmed the effect and suggested that the tubular system of muscle cells caused the relaxation effect. They also suggested that it directly relates to the mechanism of muscle contraction, an important problem still not entirely resolved.</ref> We demonstrated later on that the same effect is true for all colloidal systems and suspension of particles. The relaxation mechanism became of great interest in physical chemistry. The effect relates and characterizes the charge distribution on particles, caused by surfactants, i.e. materials which coat a particle to keep them in suspension. The primary importance of that discovery relates to the understanding of sedimentation, coagulation of solutions and stability of solutions. Our research had an effect on the chemical industry from a practical point of view, and increased our knowledge of the biophysical properties of biological cells and tissues.<ref> The low frequency dispersion found by us was subsequently also observed with minerals. Understanding of the electrical properties of earth and minerals directly relates to the ability to locate oil and other valuable deposits by electrical means.</ref>  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It's interesting that you discovered that with a very complex biological material. Was that rapidly picked up by physical chemists? </p>
+
It's interesting that you discovered that with a very complex biological material. Was that rapidly picked up by physical chemists?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was picked up by a few physical chemists and later confirmed by others. Then it got quiet. But in the last ten years there was a sudden outburst. People confirmed the effect. They rediscovered it. Dozens of publications have appeared in the last ten years about it and related phenomena. It's a fairly active field. But it was sort of forgotten for a while. </p>
+
It was picked up by a few physical chemists and later confirmed by others. Then it got quiet. But in the last ten years there was a sudden outburst. People confirmed the effect. They rediscovered it. Dozens of publications have appeared in the last ten years about it and related phenomena. It's a fairly active field. But it was sort of forgotten for a while.  
  
 
=== University of Pennsylvania  ===
 
=== University of Pennsylvania  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Tell me how your connection with the University of Pennsylvania began. </p>
+
Tell me how your connection with the University of Pennsylvania began.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, another fortunate accident in my life. I had published a paper in Germany with Rajewsky on the high-frequency properties of blood. Many papers certainly had been published on this but our paper went to higher frequencies than other work. That paper had been read by some scientists at the University of Pennsylvania who had a relevant interest, in particular, a Dr. Hüber, also a German. Hüber had left Germany in 1936. His wife was Jewish. He was president of the University of Lübeck, I believe, another German university. The Nazis told him either to get a divorce or to leave. So he left for the United States. He had gotten a research assistant professorship at the University of Pennsylvania. In 1910, during his younger years, Hüber had published a paper titled "First determination of the electric properties of blood cells." My work was an extension of Hüber's work, establishing the properties of red blood cells and its interiors more accurately than Hüber had done. </p>
+
Yes, another fortunate accident in my life. I had published a paper in Germany with Rajewsky on the high-frequency properties of blood. Many papers certainly had been published on this but our paper went to higher frequencies than other work. That paper had been read by some scientists at the University of Pennsylvania who had a relevant interest, in particular, a Dr. Hüber, also a German. Hüber had left Germany in 1936. His wife was Jewish. He was president of the University of Lübeck, I believe, another German university. The Nazis told him either to get a divorce or to leave. So he left for the United States. He had gotten a research assistant professorship at the University of Pennsylvania. In 1910, during his younger years, Hüber had published a paper titled "First determination of the electric properties of blood cells." My work was an extension of Hüber's work, establishing the properties of red blood cells and its interiors more accurately than Hüber had done.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was Hüber's motivation for his work? </p>
+
What was Hüber's motivation for his work?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>He was a physiologist by training, and at the time he had an interest in red blood cells. He had done a lot of work with red blood cells. He found something very interesting, namely that the red blood cells displayed different conductivities at high and low frequencies. That was an important finding. He deduced from those differences in properties that there was a cell membrane separating the interior and exterior of the cell. He was one of the early scientists to recognize the existence of biological membranes. It was a great breakthrough, of course. Hüber's work was heavily disputed at the time. Of course, people eventually accepted it. The existence of membranes had been established just a couple of years earlier. Bernstein usually gets the credit. Based on the electric technology at the time, Hüber confirmed it and used a more rigorous technique to establish that there are membranes. Hüber had seen the paper I had published in Germany, and he learned that I was working for the Navy. A colleague of mine in the Navy had been a student of Hüber's before he joined the Navy lab. This former student of Hüber's then introduced us. Hüber asked me to give a seminar for the Physiological Society of Philadelphia and the Department of Physiology at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School. I gave my seminar on my blood research. That was the start of my affiliation. </p>
+
He was a physiologist by training, and at the time he had an interest in red blood cells. He had done a lot of work with red blood cells. He found something very interesting, namely that the red blood cells displayed different conductivities at high and low frequencies. That was an important finding. He deduced from those differences in properties that there was a cell membrane separating the interior and exterior of the cell. He was one of the early scientists to recognize the existence of biological membranes. It was a great breakthrough, of course. Hüber's work was heavily disputed at the time. Of course, people eventually accepted it. The existence of membranes had been established just a couple of years earlier. Bernstein usually gets the credit. Based on the electric technology at the time, Hüber confirmed it and used a more rigorous technique to establish that there are membranes. Hüber had seen the paper I had published in Germany, and he learned that I was working for the Navy. A colleague of mine in the Navy had been a student of Hüber's before he joined the Navy lab. This former student of Hüber's then introduced us. Hüber asked me to give a seminar for the Physiological Society of Philadelphia and the Department of Physiology at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School. I gave my seminar on my blood research. That was the start of my affiliation.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were doing blood research there in Philadelphia? </p>
+
You were doing blood research there in Philadelphia?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not at the time. I talked at the seminar about the German work, what I had done in Germany. Two other people joined the seminar. One was E. Carstensen, a student, who studied physics at that time. He has just retired from the chairmanship of Biomedical Engineering at the University of Rochester. The other was C. Kay, who was in charge of cardiology in the Department of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. They contacted me after the seminar and met with me repeatedly. Carstensen taught a course on elements of physics in the Department of Physical Medicine &amp; Rehabilitation related to diathermy techniques while he was still a student. After the seminar and in the laboratory discussions, he said they had developed good insight in diathermy techniques. Kay became interested in tissue measurements and tissue properties as they relate to electrocardiography. His specialty was diagnostic techniques, especially ECG technology. He wondered how electric properties were affecting the electrical heart signals on the ECG. In a short while I became a consultant to several departments — to Medicine, to Physical Medicine — and then got my appointment eventually in 1950. Of course, thanks to Hüber, and then to the accident that there were related interests, both in cardiology and in physical medicine, and at the Moore School of Electrical Engineering at Penn. Carstensen was a member of one of the earliest Electromedical Laboratories founded in the United States and located in the Moore School. </p>
+
Not at the time. I talked at the seminar about the German work, what I had done in Germany. Two other people joined the seminar. One was E. Carstensen, a student, who studied physics at that time. He has just retired from the chairmanship of Biomedical Engineering at the University of Rochester. The other was C. Kay, who was in charge of cardiology in the Department of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. They contacted me after the seminar and met with me repeatedly. Carstensen taught a course on elements of physics in the Department of Physical Medicine &amp; Rehabilitation related to diathermy techniques while he was still a student. After the seminar and in the laboratory discussions, he said they had developed good insight in diathermy techniques. Kay became interested in tissue measurements and tissue properties as they relate to electrocardiography. His specialty was diagnostic techniques, especially ECG technology. He wondered how electric properties were affecting the electrical heart signals on the ECG. In a short while I became a consultant to several departments — to Medicine, to Physical Medicine — and then got my appointment eventually in 1950. Of course, thanks to Hüber, and then to the accident that there were related interests, both in cardiology and in physical medicine, and at the Moore School of Electrical Engineering at Penn. Carstensen was a member of one of the earliest Electromedical Laboratories founded in the United States and located in the Moore School.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you offered a full-time position in 1950? </p>
+
Were you offered a full-time position in 1950?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I had to leave the Navy. It was full time. </p>
+
Yes. I had to leave the Navy. It was full time.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you have a year-by-year contract with the Navy, or just an indefinite commitment? </p>
+
Did you have a year-by-year contract with the Navy, or just an indefinite commitment?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I think the crucial time was after the first year. Until then my contract was automatically renewed. The total arrangement changed after the first year. The initial contract paid me a salary in Germany. In the United States the Navy provided me officer's quarters and a small per diem. The next year I received a regular contract. I got a regular salary in this country and they stopped paying me in Germany. I had to establish my own living facilities here in the U.S. I got about $6,000, which was somewhat higher than an assistant professor got at that time. As a matter of fact, three years later, when I went to Penn, and became an assistant professor, my total income including a regular salary in Physical Medicine and a contribution from cardiology, amounted to $6,000 or $7,000. I read, interestingly enough, in [[Richard Feynman|Feynman]]'s book that when he was an instructor at Cornell University he got $3,000 for his salary. So I had a good salary, generally speaking, even though it's not much today. </p>
+
I think the crucial time was after the first year. Until then my contract was automatically renewed. The total arrangement changed after the first year. The initial contract paid me a salary in Germany. In the United States the Navy provided me officer's quarters and a small per diem. The next year I received a regular contract. I got a regular salary in this country and they stopped paying me in Germany. I had to establish my own living facilities here in the U.S. I got about $6,000, which was somewhat higher than an assistant professor got at that time. As a matter of fact, three years later, when I went to Penn, and became an assistant professor, my total income including a regular salary in Physical Medicine and a contribution from cardiology, amounted to $6,000 or $7,000. I read, interestingly enough, in [[Richard Feynman|Feynman]]'s book that when he was an instructor at Cornell University he got $3,000 for his salary. So I had a good salary, generally speaking, even though it's not much today.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did you like the Philadelphia area? </p>
+
How did you like the Philadelphia area?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Well, again I was fortunate because initially I was supposed to live in Navy barracks, but they were overcrowded. So the Navy rented a private room for me. That was on the Main Line, in Bala-Cynwyd. The Main Line, coming from destroyed Frankfurt, appeared like a paradise. [Chuckling.] I have lived on the Main Line ever since. The Main Line is a well known part of the north-west Philadelphia area composed of suburban villages. </p>
+
Well, again I was fortunate because initially I was supposed to live in Navy barracks, but they were overcrowded. So the Navy rented a private room for me. That was on the Main Line, in Bala-Cynwyd. The Main Line, coming from destroyed Frankfurt, appeared like a paradise. [Chuckling.] I have lived on the Main Line ever since. The Main Line is a well known part of the north-west Philadelphia area composed of suburban villages.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Tell me about your transition from the Navy lab to the University of Pennsylvania? Were you given a laboratory? </p>
+
Tell me about your transition from the Navy lab to the University of Pennsylvania? Were you given a laboratory?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I had first one laboratory. Space was at a premium at the time. My laboratory was in the basement of the Medical School and borrowed from the Department of Anatomy. It was about twelve by twenty feet, I suppose. I had a total of 250 square feet. A year later, I moved from the basement room into two somewhat larger rooms upstairs, in the Department of Anatomy. Now I had some 700 square feet. In 'fifty-two I was appointed as head of the Electromedical Laboratory, which was located in the engineering school, the Moore School, where we occupied another 300 square feet. We had altogether about 1,000 square feet of space. In 'fifty-five I convinced the director of the Moore School that I had a good chance to get more money for building projects. When the time came, the Moore School built a new research wing. I applied to NIH, and I got the money for the additional lab which provided us with 5,000 square feet of space. </p>
+
I had first one laboratory. Space was at a premium at the time. My laboratory was in the basement of the Medical School and borrowed from the Department of Anatomy. It was about twelve by twenty feet, I suppose. I had a total of 250 square feet. A year later, I moved from the basement room into two somewhat larger rooms upstairs, in the Department of Anatomy. Now I had some 700 square feet. In 'fifty-two I was appointed as head of the Electromedical Laboratory, which was located in the engineering school, the Moore School, where we occupied another 300 square feet. We had altogether about 1,000 square feet of space. In 'fifty-five I convinced the director of the Moore School that I had a good chance to get more money for building projects. When the time came, the Moore School built a new research wing. I applied to NIH, and I got the money for the additional lab which provided us with 5,000 square feet of space.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In one place? </p>
+
In one place?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>In one place. Then I switched over to the Engineering School in 1957 and gave up the quarters in the Medical School. Three to four years later I repeated the same thing. Everyone predicted I wouldn't have a chance to get it. The vice president in charge of medical affairs said to Brainerd, the Director of the Moore School, "Schwan: has not a chance." [Chuckling.] I got the money for another 10,000 square feet in the new research center. So it worked out all right, space-wise. </p>
+
In one place. Then I switched over to the Engineering School in 1957 and gave up the quarters in the Medical School. Three to four years later I repeated the same thing. Everyone predicted I wouldn't have a chance to get it. The vice president in charge of medical affairs said to Brainerd, the Director of the Moore School, "Schwan: has not a chance." [Chuckling.] I got the money for another 10,000 square feet in the new research center. So it worked out all right, space-wise.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. </p>
+
I see.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>But it started very simple, very slow. </p>
+
But it started very simple, very slow.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You said that the Navy permitted you to take the equipment you'd built there? </p>
+
You said that the Navy permitted you to take the equipment you'd built there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. They were very generous, I thought. Very nice. </p>
+
Yes. They were very generous, I thought. Very nice.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How much of this was off-the-shelf equipment, and how much had you had to have built? </p>
+
How much of this was off-the-shelf equipment, and how much had you had to have built?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Most parts were off the shelf, I would say. But the combination was unique. In particular, our choice of the conductance box to make it a working unit at the intended level. The calibration procedure was novel. I went through a complicated, very unusual technique to calibrate the equipment to do the job. </p>
+
Most parts were off the shelf, I would say. But the combination was unique. In particular, our choice of the conductance box to make it a working unit at the intended level. The calibration procedure was novel. I went through a complicated, very unusual technique to calibrate the equipment to do the job.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>And you set that up at Penn? </p>
+
And you set that up at Penn?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were you working alone initially? </p>
+
Were you working alone initially?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Initially, yes. Even though I was not affiliated with the Moore School of Electrical Engineering, the student I mentioned earlier, Carstensen, took an interest in my work. Carstensen was sort of looking around for ideas. He had not focused in yet on a Ph.D. topic, and I suggested topics to him. Then I became his supervisor, and I provided funds which sustained him. </p>
+
Initially, yes. Even though I was not affiliated with the Moore School of Electrical Engineering, the student I mentioned earlier, Carstensen, took an interest in my work. Carstensen was sort of looking around for ideas. He had not focused in yet on a Ph.D. topic, and I suggested topics to him. Then I became his supervisor, and I provided funds which sustained him.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Where were those funds from? </p>
+
Where were those funds from?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I was supported by the Department of Medicine and the Department of Physical Medicine for the first two years starting in 1952. But I didn't have tenure. As it turned out, I found out that my salary came from the Infantile Paralysis Foundation. After two years the department chairman said, "Herman, you are still an assistant professor, but I have no more money for you. Get your own money." [Laughter.] By that time I had met with several people from the Naval Laboratory in Bethesda, the Office of Naval Research. They had contacted me. Elizabeth Kelly, who's still alive and active now at Indiana University, was in charge of the physiology branch of the Office of Naval Research. She had heard about my work about the biological effects of high-frequency currents. She visited me and encouraged me to submit a contract proposal to ONR. That was my first contract before the departmental support ran out. Shortly thereafter I also got an NIH grant. </p>
+
I was supported by the Department of Medicine and the Department of Physical Medicine for the first two years starting in 1952. But I didn't have tenure. As it turned out, I found out that my salary came from the Infantile Paralysis Foundation. After two years the department chairman said, "Herman, you are still an assistant professor, but I have no more money for you. Get your own money." [Laughter.] By that time I had met with several people from the Naval Laboratory in Bethesda, the Office of Naval Research. They had contacted me. Elizabeth Kelly, who's still alive and active now at Indiana University, was in charge of the physiology branch of the Office of Naval Research. She had heard about my work about the biological effects of high-frequency currents. She visited me and encouraged me to submit a contract proposal to ONR. That was my first contract before the departmental support ran out. Shortly thereafter I also got an NIH grant.  
  
<p>I wound up with grants that aren't a fortune by today's standards, but adjusted for inflation, they were very nice. Shortly thereafter I obtained an Air Force grant. By 1953 I had three grants and contracts underway, totaling about $40,000, while my salary was about $7,000. The $40,000 in 1953 was like getting $400,000 in 1992. At that time the university overhead was percent.<ref> Our work on the ultrasonic properties of tissues was a logical extension of relevant low frequency interests. Low frequency acoustic properties are identical with those experienced when tissues are exposed to vibration, sudden accelerations, etc., as experienced by pilots flying high performance aircraft. These days, astronauts are exposed to very high vibration levels when space vehicles are launched. The overall frequency dependence of the mechanical properties of tissues helps to identify mechanism and thereby to provide insight into how mechanical stresses impose unduly on tissues.</ref> Now it's near sixty percent. So I had a million per year for research, so to speak. </p>
+
I wound up with grants that aren't a fortune by today's standards, but adjusted for inflation, they were very nice. Shortly thereafter I obtained an Air Force grant. By 1953 I had three grants and contracts underway, totaling about $40,000, while my salary was about $7,000. The $40,000 in 1953 was like getting $400,000 in 1992. At that time the university overhead was percent.<ref> Our work on the ultrasonic properties of tissues was a logical extension of relevant low frequency interests. Low frequency acoustic properties are identical with those experienced when tissues are exposed to vibration, sudden accelerations, etc., as experienced by pilots flying high performance aircraft. These days, astronauts are exposed to very high vibration levels when space vehicles are launched. The overall frequency dependence of the mechanical properties of tissues helps to identify mechanism and thereby to provide insight into how mechanical stresses impose unduly on tissues.</ref> Now it's near sixty percent. So I had a million per year for research, so to speak.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you use that to hire some assistants? </p>
+
Did you use that to hire some assistants?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>To hire additional people, yes. </p>
+
To hire additional people, yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Buy equipment? </p>
+
Buy equipment?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I used the grants to support students, and to buy equipment. As a result the group started to grow. That's why I needed also more space, of course. </p>
+
I used the grants to support students, and to buy equipment. As a result the group started to grow. That's why I needed also more space, of course.  
  
 
=== Microwave Hazard &amp; Safety Research  ===
 
=== Microwave Hazard &amp; Safety Research  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was the reason that most people were interested in the biological effects of high frequency fields? </p>
+
What was the reason that most people were interested in the biological effects of high frequency fields?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That was an interest of the Navy that went back to the Second World War when some people were concerned about the dangers of radar equipment. After the war the Navy decided to look a little bit deeper into the general question of how radiation might effect people. </p>
+
That was an interest of the Navy that went back to the Second World War when some people were concerned about the dangers of radar equipment. After the war the Navy decided to look a little bit deeper into the general question of how radiation might effect people.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>So it was maybe not on every one of your research projects, but the ultimate motivation was specifically [[Radar|radar]], the microwave frequency radiation? </p>
+
So it was maybe not on every one of your research projects, but the ultimate motivation was specifically [[Radar|radar]], the microwave frequency radiation?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I would say NIH primarily supported some of the basic research or electrical properties, while the Navy was primarily interested in practical applications; namely [[Biological Effects of Electromagnetic Radiation|how non-ionizing radiation interacts with the human body]]. At that time there were very few people interested in that field. I was virtually alone when I developed this approach. The first open meeting about microwave hazards that took place in this country was in 1955 at the Mayo Clinic. </p>
+
Yes. I would say NIH primarily supported some of the basic research or electrical properties, while the Navy was primarily interested in practical applications; namely [[Biological Effects of Electromagnetic Radiation|how non-ionizing radiation interacts with the human body]]. At that time there were very few people interested in that field. I was virtually alone when I developed this approach. The first open meeting about microwave hazards that took place in this country was in 1955 at the Mayo Clinic.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Had the Navy set some kind of tolerance or safety standards for microwaves for radar workers during the war? </p>
+
Had the Navy set some kind of tolerance or safety standards for microwaves for radar workers during the war?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No, not during the war. The Navy held the first meeting to my knowledge in 'fifty-three. That was organized by the Office of Naval Research. There were just a few people involved which was quite typical for the field at the time. The well-known biophysicist Kenneth S. Cole was there. A man who knew a good deal about non-ionizing radiation in the infrared, Jim Hardy, from the University of Pennsylvania, was there as well. David Goldman, Cole's student, the one who had visited me in Frankfurt, also attended, and myself. There the first proposal for standards were made. The committee first decided that 100 milliwatts per square centimeter would be the safety standard. But then I went home, thought it over, and submitted a memorandum to the Navy suggesting ten milliwatts per square centimeter. That became the inside Navy standard for years to come. </p>
+
No, not during the war. The Navy held the first meeting to my knowledge in 'fifty-three. That was organized by the Office of Naval Research. There were just a few people involved which was quite typical for the field at the time. The well-known biophysicist Kenneth S. Cole was there. A man who knew a good deal about non-ionizing radiation in the infrared, Jim Hardy, from the University of Pennsylvania, was there as well. David Goldman, Cole's student, the one who had visited me in Frankfurt, also attended, and myself. There the first proposal for standards were made. The committee first decided that 100 milliwatts per square centimeter would be the safety standard. But then I went home, thought it over, and submitted a memorandum to the Navy suggesting ten milliwatts per square centimeter. That became the inside Navy standard for years to come.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In 1952, you became a naturalized citizen. </p>
+
In 1952, you became a naturalized citizen.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Obviously you decided that you weren't returning to Germany. </p>
+
Obviously you decided that you weren't returning to Germany.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Right. Oh, may I show you something in this context? This little book is one of the things I'm sort of happy about. There were several distinct events. The first was, I believe you have that on tape, the meeting which had been called by the Navy. Shortly thereafter, a student and myself published a paper on standards in the Proceedings of the then-IRE. Then I published another paper in the IRE ''Transactions'' of medical electronics, recommending the ten milliwatts per square centimeter standard. The Navy had adopted that standard — but there were no further activities in the field until the Mayo Clinic meeting, in 'fifty-five. But not too much happened until the Air Force became interested in the subject matter. </p>
+
Right. Oh, may I show you something in this context? This little book is one of the things I'm sort of happy about. There were several distinct events. The first was, I believe you have that on tape, the meeting which had been called by the Navy. Shortly thereafter, a student and myself published a paper on standards in the Proceedings of the then-IRE. Then I published another paper in the IRE ''Transactions'' of medical electronics, recommending the ten milliwatts per square centimeter standard. The Navy had adopted that standard — but there were no further activities in the field until the Mayo Clinic meeting, in 'fifty-five. But not too much happened until the Air Force became interested in the subject matter.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was the Navy the only one that had set a standard until the Air Force became interested? </p>
+
Was the Navy the only one that had set a standard until the Air Force became interested?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. In 1959 the National Standards Institute, at that time called ASA — American Standards Association, developed an interest in the field. They asked me to become chairman of a new committee to be established, the C-95 Committee. I chaired that committee for five or six years. </p>
+
Yes. In 1959 the National Standards Institute, at that time called ASA — American Standards Association, developed an interest in the field. They asked me to become chairman of a new committee to be established, the C-95 Committee. I chaired that committee for five or six years.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What years were those? </p>
+
What years were those?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That was 'fifty-nine or 'sixty to 'sixty-five. It's in my CV. The first thing I did was to divide the activity of the committee into four subcommittees. Subcommittee 4 was concerned with hazards to mankind. Other subcommittees were concerned with hazards to explosives and things like that. While I was chairman of the overall committee, I appointed Colonel North from the Air Force as chairman of Subcommittee 4, to explore the human exposure hazards. He had started a big research program at Rome Air Force base that distributed money to various universities. For various reasons not too much happened with the Subcommittee 4 under North. Eventually I assumed the chair of Subcommittee 4, in addition to my responsibility for the total committee. Then I appointed a small subcommittee which had a representative from the labor unions and included Goldman, Tom Ely, who had done a good job while he was in Bethesda, and Momford from Bell Laboratories, who had worked out a standard for Bell. </p>
+
That was 'fifty-nine or 'sixty to 'sixty-five. It's in my CV. The first thing I did was to divide the activity of the committee into four subcommittees. Subcommittee 4 was concerned with hazards to mankind. Other subcommittees were concerned with hazards to explosives and things like that. While I was chairman of the overall committee, I appointed Colonel North from the Air Force as chairman of Subcommittee 4, to explore the human exposure hazards. He had started a big research program at Rome Air Force base that distributed money to various universities. For various reasons not too much happened with the Subcommittee 4 under North. Eventually I assumed the chair of Subcommittee 4, in addition to my responsibility for the total committee. Then I appointed a small subcommittee which had a representative from the labor unions and included Goldman, Tom Ely, who had done a good job while he was in Bethesda, and Momford from Bell Laboratories, who had worked out a standard for Bell.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Oh, they had a standard? </p>
+
Oh, they had a standard?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was their standard? </p>
+
What was their standard?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Their standard was one milliwatt. We met together and worked out a proposal. After lengthy discussion the ten milliwatts per square centimeter standard was adopted by the total committee. It was the first general standard to be established. It was reconfirmed twice and then modified towards a somewhat more frequency-specific standard than it was originally. </p>
+
Their standard was one milliwatt. We met together and worked out a proposal. After lengthy discussion the ten milliwatts per square centimeter standard was adopted by the total committee. It was the first general standard to be established. It was reconfirmed twice and then modified towards a somewhat more frequency-specific standard than it was originally.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I could imagine that in the first years, there just wasn't much research out there to base your decisions on. </p>
+
I could imagine that in the first years, there just wasn't much research out there to base your decisions on.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>But I assume more and more work was done? </p>
+
But I assume more and more work was done?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Quite. </p>
+
Quite.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was there work done in other countries that was helpful to that section? </p>
+
Was there work done in other countries that was helpful to that section?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not much. When I left, the related activities at the Frankfurt Institute continued with some people, but it was not highly effective, and eventually it completely ceased to exist there. There was some activity going on at Siemens Research Laboratories in Germany. That work was of good quality but primarily limited to diathermy developments, both microwave radio frequency and ultrasonic. You may have read about it in some of my articles. But that is all. It didn't go beyond that. The real important work in dosimetry was done in this country — first by us, and then at the University of Washington, Seattle, by W. Guy. An article I wrote will appear in a special issue of the Bioelectromagnetics at the occasion of his retirement, as a Festschrift. It will be published in December 'ninety-two. That is a special issue in honor of Guy, who retired from the University of Washington. </p>
+
Not much. When I left, the related activities at the Frankfurt Institute continued with some people, but it was not highly effective, and eventually it completely ceased to exist there. There was some activity going on at Siemens Research Laboratories in Germany. That work was of good quality but primarily limited to diathermy developments, both microwave radio frequency and ultrasonic. You may have read about it in some of my articles. But that is all. It didn't go beyond that. The real important work in dosimetry was done in this country — first by us, and then at the University of Washington, Seattle, by W. Guy. An article I wrote will appear in a special issue of the Bioelectromagnetics at the occasion of his retirement, as a Festschrift. It will be published in December 'ninety-two. That is a special issue in honor of Guy, who retired from the University of Washington.  
  
<p>He did excellent work. Then another strong group emerged in Salt Lake City. That group included Durney and Ghandi. Durney is a Mormon, and Ghandi's from India. They are both members of the same department of electrical engineering. They have done excellent work, also. </p>
+
He did excellent work. Then another strong group emerged in Salt Lake City. That group included Durney and Ghandi. Durney is a Mormon, and Ghandi's from India. They are both members of the same department of electrical engineering. They have done excellent work, also.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>But the Siemens group did some work partly because of diathermy? </p>
+
But the Siemens group did some work partly because of diathermy?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Primarily, yes. They developed some good diathermy equipment. </p>
+
Primarily, yes. They developed some good diathermy equipment.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was the research in this country focused specifically on this question of the possible hazards of microwaves from radar? I'm wondering about the research that was of value to your committee in setting the standards. </p>
+
Was the research in this country focused specifically on this question of the possible hazards of microwaves from radar? I'm wondering about the research that was of value to your committee in setting the standards.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I used a combination of fields. I used basic physiological knowledge about metabolic rates and tolerances of the human body with regard to heat as one yardstick. I learned a great deal about infrared and the thermal regulatory system of the body from Jim Hardy. I worked with him while he was still at Pennsylvania, before he left for Yale. The second input I had was based on our own work about the mode of propagation; namely, what percentage at what frequencies are reflected from the body surface, from the boundaries of subcutaneous tissues versus deep tissues and things like that. I concentrated on the effect of the curvature of the body, and measured microwave scattering cross sections of man. I call all of those studies macroscopic dosimetry. They provide details about how energy is distributed inside the body. That information pertains to standards. The diathermy experience provided a third body of knowledge. True, it's not whole body radiation; it's local body radiation. But nevertheless it gives you an idea of what can be tolerated by the human body. So in my deliberations I combined four different fields as I drew from the literature as it developed with time. </p>
+
I used a combination of fields. I used basic physiological knowledge about metabolic rates and tolerances of the human body with regard to heat as one yardstick. I learned a great deal about infrared and the thermal regulatory system of the body from Jim Hardy. I worked with him while he was still at Pennsylvania, before he left for Yale. The second input I had was based on our own work about the mode of propagation; namely, what percentage at what frequencies are reflected from the body surface, from the boundaries of subcutaneous tissues versus deep tissues and things like that. I concentrated on the effect of the curvature of the body, and measured microwave scattering cross sections of man. I call all of those studies macroscopic dosimetry. They provide details about how energy is distributed inside the body. That information pertains to standards. The diathermy experience provided a third body of knowledge. True, it's not whole body radiation; it's local body radiation. But nevertheless it gives you an idea of what can be tolerated by the human body. So in my deliberations I combined four different fields as I drew from the literature as it developed with time.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was this standard specifically for microwave frequencies? </p>
+
Was this standard specifically for microwave frequencies?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Initially the standard was set to extend through the microwave range and the radio frequency range. </p>
+
Initially the standard was set to extend through the microwave range and the radio frequency range.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Also radio frequency? </p>
+
Also radio frequency?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. From 100 kilohertz or so up to 100 gigahertz. It didn't go to low frequencies initially. </p>
+
Yes. From 100 kilohertz or so up to 100 gigahertz. It didn't go to low frequencies initially.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>People became concerned for safety standards in different frequency ranges. You said the initial concern in this country was specifically for radar. Were there any other electromagnetic fields in the 'fifties and 'sixties that people were concerned about? </p>
+
People became concerned for safety standards in different frequency ranges. You said the initial concern in this country was specifically for radar. Were there any other electromagnetic fields in the 'fifties and 'sixties that people were concerned about?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. People were not only suspicious about the radar frequency range, but were also concerned about any antenna system. You know, we all have some somewhere near our backyards. Recently I testified for Sun because they have a relay system. There is a tower in Valley Forge which picks up information from one direction, amplifies it, and sends it out further. A large part of the telephone system is carried that way by microwave beams. People living nearby relay towers worry about the extent to which this might affect them. </p>
+
Yes. People were not only suspicious about the radar frequency range, but were also concerned about any antenna system. You know, we all have some somewhere near our backyards. Recently I testified for Sun because they have a relay system. There is a tower in Valley Forge which picks up information from one direction, amplifies it, and sends it out further. A large part of the telephone system is carried that way by microwave beams. People living nearby relay towers worry about the extent to which this might affect them.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were there people concerned about radio frequency waves in the 'fifties and 'sixties? </p>
+
Were there people concerned about radio frequency waves in the 'fifties and 'sixties?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not in the 'fifties. I would say concern over radio waves developed in the 'sixties. Reports emerging from Russia confused the American public. They had done research in the field, and had established hazard standards for both microwave and radio frequencies which were about 1,000-fold lower than those I had recommended — microwatt instead of milliwatt. That shook some people very much, and they wondered about it. A number of people paid more and more attention to the Russian literature, and things started to backfire. The press became interested. Then the microwave oven came. Consumer Reports issued a warning that people should not purchase microwave ovens. Concern about the hazards snowballed. </p>
+
Not in the 'fifties. I would say concern over radio waves developed in the 'sixties. Reports emerging from Russia confused the American public. They had done research in the field, and had established hazard standards for both microwave and radio frequencies which were about 1,000-fold lower than those I had recommended — microwatt instead of milliwatt. That shook some people very much, and they wondered about it. A number of people paid more and more attention to the Russian literature, and things started to backfire. The press became interested. Then the microwave oven came. Consumer Reports issued a warning that people should not purchase microwave ovens. Concern about the hazards snowballed.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was your estimation of this Russian research? </p>
+
What was your estimation of this Russian research?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I didn't think much about it. Let me be more precise. My counterpart in Russia was a Dr. Gordon, a woman whom I met several times. She was a very pleasant and kind woman, for whom I have high personal regards. I met her at international meetings on medical electronics and biomedical engineering in London in 'sixty and in Paris in fifty-nine and New York in 'sixty-one. I worked closely with her in 1973 at a meeting in Poland, where we compromised our points of view and drafted recommendations for the World Health Organization. I was aware of the Russian work. I got many of her publications from meetings she organized in Russia. Most of the work they did reported effects in the range between one and ten milliwatts per square centimeter, not in the microwatt area. But then they applied safety factors of 10s and 100s, thereby coming down. The effects, ranging from one to ten milliwatts per square centimeter, were subtle but important. Let me differentiate between dangerous effects, such as heat leading to heat exhaustion due to excess of microwaves, and subtle effects, such as the perception of warmth when you stand in the sun. Perception is a biological effect, but it's not dangerous. But over-stressing your system is dangerous. Typically you have a range of 10- to 100-fold difference between the point of perception of subtle level and dangerous levels. </p>
+
I didn't think much about it. Let me be more precise. My counterpart in Russia was a Dr. Gordon, a woman whom I met several times. She was a very pleasant and kind woman, for whom I have high personal regards. I met her at international meetings on medical electronics and biomedical engineering in London in 'sixty and in Paris in fifty-nine and New York in 'sixty-one. I worked closely with her in 1973 at a meeting in Poland, where we compromised our points of view and drafted recommendations for the World Health Organization. I was aware of the Russian work. I got many of her publications from meetings she organized in Russia. Most of the work they did reported effects in the range between one and ten milliwatts per square centimeter, not in the microwatt area. But then they applied safety factors of 10s and 100s, thereby coming down. The effects, ranging from one to ten milliwatts per square centimeter, were subtle but important. Let me differentiate between dangerous effects, such as heat leading to heat exhaustion due to excess of microwaves, and subtle effects, such as the perception of warmth when you stand in the sun. Perception is a biological effect, but it's not dangerous. But over-stressing your system is dangerous. Typically you have a range of 10- to 100-fold difference between the point of perception of subtle level and dangerous levels.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. You knew what evidence they were basing their standards on? </p>
+
I see. You knew what evidence they were basing their standards on?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I think so. I knew a great deal about the Russian work — probably more at the time than other Americans. I was well informed. </p>
+
I think so. I knew a great deal about the Russian work — probably more at the time than other Americans. I was well informed.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>But that didn't change your estimation of what was a safe level? </p>
+
But that didn't change your estimation of what was a safe level?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. </p>
+
No.  
  
 
=== Funding and Academic Appointments  ===
 
=== Funding and Academic Appointments  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I want to try to stay in chronological order a bit. In the 'fifties you were successful in getting funding from ONR, NIH and the Air Force? </p>
+
I want to try to stay in chronological order a bit. In the 'fifties you were successful in getting funding from ONR, NIH and the Air Force?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You said at one point that the Air Force was interested in more practical questions. </p>
+
You said at one point that the Air Force was interested in more practical questions.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>ONR was interested in the electromagnetic hazard area, like the Army. NIH supports more basic work with electric properties. The Air Force supported the acoustics work during the 1950s. </p>
+
ONR was interested in the electromagnetic hazard area, like the Army. NIH supports more basic work with electric properties. The Air Force supported the acoustics work during the 1950s.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. </p>
+
I see.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Air Force interest existed at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. It serves as a major research center for the Air Force. It's there to this day near Columbus, Ohio. They had established a directorate which was headed by a man named Gagge. Gagge is an environmental physiologist, and he's also a member of the National Academy of Engineering. His background is as an engineer and physicist, and he also became interested in physiology. He did a good deal of work on thermal regulation from an engineer's point of view. If I may briefly summarize some of what he did, he was perhaps the first to model the human body's thermoregulatory system. Compartmental thermoregulation studies show how the body functions from a temperature regulation point of view. He was the first to start that sort of work. Later my colleague Jim Hardy from Penn started working with him at Yale. I just saw Gagge recently at a reception at Yale. Bromley, the Science Advisor to the President, gave a lecture there. Gagge's program was aided by Henning von Gierke. He is another German with biophysical interests, who is also a member of the National Academy of Engineering and had strong biomechanical interests. He worked for the Air Force and set up a stress technology laboratory for them. They were interested in questions like what happens to a pilot who crash lands, what acceleration can a pilot's body take, and the problem of blackout when a plane dives. He also became interested in the ultrasonic program at Penn. Von Gierke and Gagge were in good part responsible for our research in bioacoustics. </p>
+
Air Force interest existed at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. It serves as a major research center for the Air Force. It's there to this day near Columbus, Ohio. They had established a directorate which was headed by a man named Gagge. Gagge is an environmental physiologist, and he's also a member of the National Academy of Engineering. His background is as an engineer and physicist, and he also became interested in physiology. He did a good deal of work on thermal regulation from an engineer's point of view. If I may briefly summarize some of what he did, he was perhaps the first to model the human body's thermoregulatory system. Compartmental thermoregulation studies show how the body functions from a temperature regulation point of view. He was the first to start that sort of work. Later my colleague Jim Hardy from Penn started working with him at Yale. I just saw Gagge recently at a reception at Yale. Bromley, the Science Advisor to the President, gave a lecture there. Gagge's program was aided by Henning von Gierke. He is another German with biophysical interests, who is also a member of the National Academy of Engineering and had strong biomechanical interests. He worked for the Air Force and set up a stress technology laboratory for them. They were interested in questions like what happens to a pilot who crash lands, what acceleration can a pilot's body take, and the problem of blackout when a plane dives. He also became interested in the ultrasonic program at Penn. Von Gierke and Gagge were in good part responsible for our research in bioacoustics.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you explain why the Air Force is interested in the acoustic properties? </p>
+
Can you explain why the Air Force is interested in the acoustic properties?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was never quite clear to me. I think von Gierke motivated the work. One colleague of his also working with the Air Force at the time worked on the low-frequency acoustic properties of tissues. They developed a special physical model to explain them. He was perhaps sympathetic to the type of work I promised to do, since it was related. </p>
+
It was never quite clear to me. I think von Gierke motivated the work. One colleague of his also working with the Air Force at the time worked on the low-frequency acoustic properties of tissues. They developed a special physical model to explain them. He was perhaps sympathetic to the type of work I promised to do, since it was related.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did he approach this as a biophysicist just interested in the properties? </p>
+
Did he approach this as a biophysicist just interested in the properties?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I think so. </p>
+
Yes. I think so.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did he have a particular application in mind? </p>
+
Did he have a particular application in mind?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. But I'm by no means sure. I am just guessing. I'm not completely sure what motivated the Air Force to give us the money. But they were probably intellectually oriented towards our endeavor. </p>
+
Yes. But I'm by no means sure. I am just guessing. I'm not completely sure what motivated the Air Force to give us the money. But they were probably intellectually oriented towards our endeavor.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>But the work you did for the Air Force then was on a fundamental level of acoustic properties. </p>
+
But the work you did for the Air Force then was on a fundamental level of acoustic properties.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Of tissues, yes. That lasted only four years. But the Navy effort and the NIH effort extended up to almost my retirement. In other words, both efforts were supported for more than a quarter of a century. They were long-range efforts. </p>
+
Of tissues, yes. That lasted only four years. But the Navy effort and the NIH effort extended up to almost my retirement. In other words, both efforts were supported for more than a quarter of a century. They were long-range efforts.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you receive these grants annually? </p>
+
Did you receive these grants annually?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. At times the Navy granted me funds for a period of three years. NIH grants extended to five years. It was always a great event. Aside from those grants, another thing that helped us greatly was money for a very large training program for the training of bioengineers. In 1960 NIH funded that program at a level of $120,000 per year. At that time that was a large amount of money, considering the low overhead. </p>
+
Yes. At times the Navy granted me funds for a period of three years. NIH grants extended to five years. It was always a great event. Aside from those grants, another thing that helped us greatly was money for a very large training program for the training of bioengineers. In 1960 NIH funded that program at a level of $120,000 per year. At that time that was a large amount of money, considering the low overhead.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Maybe I could try to figure out your appointments at the University of Pennsylvania. Initially you were an assistant professor of physics and medicine in the School of Medicine. </p>
+
Maybe I could try to figure out your appointments at the University of Pennsylvania. Initially you were an assistant professor of physics and medicine in the School of Medicine.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>In that department I had appointments in physical medicine and in medicine. My primary appointment was in physical medicine, and my secondary appointment was in medicine. </p>
+
In that department I had appointments in physical medicine and in medicine. My primary appointment was in physical medicine, and my secondary appointment was in medicine.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In 'fifty-two you received a secondary appointment at the Moore School? </p>
+
In 'fifty-two you received a secondary appointment at the Moore School?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I was an assistant professor. At the same time I was appointed as head of the Electromedical Group which existed there. </p>
+
I was an assistant professor. At the same time I was appointed as head of the Electromedical Group which existed there.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That's still a secondary appointment. Your primary appointment was still in the medical school? </p>
+
That's still a secondary appointment. Your primary appointment was still in the medical school?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In 'fifty-five you became an associate professor at the Moore School? </p>
+
In 'fifty-five you became an associate professor at the Moore School?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Two years after I came to Penn, in 'fifty-two, I was advanced to an associate professorship in physical medicine, yes. </p>
+
Two years after I came to Penn, in 'fifty-two, I was advanced to an associate professorship in physical medicine, yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In 'fifty-five you were an associate professor at the Moore School, and in 'fifty-two at the School of Medicine. </p>
+
In 'fifty-five you were an associate professor at the Moore School, and in 'fifty-two at the School of Medicine.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>The School of Medicine appointment remained your primary appointment? </p>
+
The School of Medicine appointment remained your primary appointment?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I don't know. No one seems to know. [Laughter.] I moved in 'fifty-seven into a new 5,000 square-foot facility in the Moore School. Since I practically provided my own salary, no one seemed to care. I think there was once a resolution between the vice president of the engineering school and the vice president in charge of medical affairs which decided that since the medical school provided my first, primary, and tenure appointment, it would remain, ultimately, my primary appointment. But for all practical purposes, I had a primary appointment in the engineering school, where I received a professorial appointment in electrical engineering. </p>
+
I don't know. No one seems to know. [Laughter.] I moved in 'fifty-seven into a new 5,000 square-foot facility in the Moore School. Since I practically provided my own salary, no one seemed to care. I think there was once a resolution between the vice president of the engineering school and the vice president in charge of medical affairs which decided that since the medical school provided my first, primary, and tenure appointment, it would remain, ultimately, my primary appointment. But for all practical purposes, I had a primary appointment in the engineering school, where I received a professorial appointment in electrical engineering.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were physically located in the Moore School? </p>
+
You were physically located in the Moore School?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. From then on most, but not all, of the people who joined me came with an engineering background. </p>
+
Yes. From then on most, but not all, of the people who joined me came with an engineering background.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What connections continued with the School of Medicine? </p>
+
What connections continued with the School of Medicine?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Several. I taught a course on the biophysics of diathermy and related topics in the Department of Physical Medicine. I continued that for a long time. I cooperated in a variety of research programs with people in the Department of Physical Medicine and the Department of Medicine as well. Physical medicine interests were related to so-called impedance plethysmography. The connection with medicine was not by directly participating in research work but by coordinating on a planning stage. Let me give an example. In the early 1960s I came back from Germany. In Germany I had become acquainted with work which was going on at the Helmholtz Institute in Aachen. Their preliminary work with ultrasound indicated the possibility to study the valve motion of the human heart, the mitral valve. When I came back I brought it to the attention of Dr. Kay, whom I mentioned before, the head of cardiology. </p>
+
Several. I taught a course on the biophysics of diathermy and related topics in the Department of Physical Medicine. I continued that for a long time. I cooperated in a variety of research programs with people in the Department of Physical Medicine and the Department of Medicine as well. Physical medicine interests were related to so-called impedance plethysmography. The connection with medicine was not by directly participating in research work but by coordinating on a planning stage. Let me give an example. In the early 1960s I came back from Germany. In Germany I had become acquainted with work which was going on at the Helmholtz Institute in Aachen. Their preliminary work with ultrasound indicated the possibility to study the valve motion of the human heart, the mitral valve. When I came back I brought it to the attention of Dr. Kay, whom I mentioned before, the head of cardiology.  
  
<p>Accidentally, at the same time, I got an application from [[Oral-History:John M. Reid|Jack Reid]]. Jack Reid had as a student worked with a man named Wild in Minnesota, introducing ultrasonic visualization technology. Wild has just this year received a $300,000 Japan prize for this work. Jack Reid should have been included in that. Jack wanted to do Ph.D. work with me, knowing that we had a good acoustics laboratory. I suggested to him that he concentrate on heart motion studies. That became his Ph.D.. He introduced with Joyner what's now called echocardiography in this country. It is one of the most powerful techniques. No department of medicine, no cardiologist is without echocardiograph equipment these days. Since Jack was a student, he couldn't get money. So I wrote up the grant application. Again I got money from NIH. We were the first ones to get a grant from NIH for such work. I believe I had an intellectual impact on Jack Reid&nbsp; But my link with echocardiography was primarily administrative. I gave occasional seminars and had discussions with the people there and at NIH about the acoustics work. Another strong project was electrocardiography, which started earlier. David Geselowitz was the best man I had met in electrocardiography work. The National Academy recognized him for that work. He became a leader in the country in that field. So my work was a mix of engaging in scientific research, overseeing administration and initiating projects. </p>
+
Accidentally, at the same time, I got an application from [[Oral-History:John M. Reid|Jack Reid]]. Jack Reid had as a student worked with a man named Wild in Minnesota, introducing ultrasonic visualization technology. Wild has just this year received a $300,000 Japan prize for this work. Jack Reid should have been included in that. Jack wanted to do Ph.D. work with me, knowing that we had a good acoustics laboratory. I suggested to him that he concentrate on heart motion studies. That became his Ph.D.. He introduced with Joyner what's now called echocardiography in this country. It is one of the most powerful techniques. No department of medicine, no cardiologist is without echocardiograph equipment these days. Since Jack was a student, he couldn't get money. So I wrote up the grant application. Again I got money from NIH. We were the first ones to get a grant from NIH for such work. I believe I had an intellectual impact on Jack Reid&nbsp; But my link with echocardiography was primarily administrative. I gave occasional seminars and had discussions with the people there and at NIH about the acoustics work. Another strong project was electrocardiography, which started earlier. David Geselowitz was the best man I had met in electrocardiography work. The National Academy recognized him for that work. He became a leader in the country in that field. So my work was a mix of engaging in scientific research, overseeing administration and initiating projects.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How much teaching did you do in the 'fifties and 'sixties at Penn? </p>
+
How much teaching did you do in the 'fifties and 'sixties at Penn?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I started slowly. When I joined the Moore School in 'fifty-two I started to give a course which I called Medical Electronics. A few years later, somehow the course became Medical Electronics I and II to be taught in subsequent semesters. Then I got some other of my co-workers to organize courses, including Ed Carstensen. In short order we had four courses. Then we replaced the medical electronics title with specific types electric properties, interactions, electrocardiography, hemodynamics. The initial course developed rapidly into approximately half a dozen courses. It was at that time I received a large training grant for biomedical engineering training from NIH. </p>
+
I started slowly. When I joined the Moore School in 'fifty-two I started to give a course which I called Medical Electronics. A few years later, somehow the course became Medical Electronics I and II to be taught in subsequent semesters. Then I got some other of my co-workers to organize courses, including Ed Carstensen. In short order we had four courses. Then we replaced the medical electronics title with specific types electric properties, interactions, electrocardiography, hemodynamics. The initial course developed rapidly into approximately half a dozen courses. It was at that time I received a large training grant for biomedical engineering training from NIH.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you tell me about the growth of your research group? You started out in 1950 with yourself. </p>
+
Can you tell me about the growth of your research group? You started out in 1950 with yourself.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You added more people to the group as you received new grants? </p>
+
You added more people to the group as you received new grants?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did you have graduate students working with you? </p>
+
Did you have graduate students working with you?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When did additional appointments at Penn then become possible for your group? </p>
+
When did additional appointments at Penn then become possible for your group?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Additional academic appointments? We rapidly added at a lower level, research associates. I hired several Ph.D.'s in this capacity and some foreigners — Germans and Japanese. In those early years the Japanese and Germans were eager to come to this country. To them this country was a learning experience. You could get them to work at a reasonable price. They added tremendously to our research enterprise. I appointed some of the people who got their doctorate in my lab to faculty positions. </p>
+
Additional academic appointments? We rapidly added at a lower level, research associates. I hired several Ph.D.'s in this capacity and some foreigners — Germans and Japanese. In those early years the Japanese and Germans were eager to come to this country. To them this country was a learning experience. You could get them to work at a reasonable price. They added tremendously to our research enterprise. I appointed some of the people who got their doctorate in my lab to faculty positions.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were allowed to do this? </p>
+
You were allowed to do this?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I proposed them. It had to be approved by the administration. </p>
+
I proposed them. It had to be approved by the administration.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You had the funding for the positions? </p>
+
You had the funding for the positions?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I had the proposals, and I had the funding. Yes, I had to organize the funding. At that time I practically financed the total operation, and the university's support was small. It changed later on, however. The university committed more and more funds later. I would say that the university initially looked on with interest but they remained skeptical. They seemed to be saying, "We don't believe that this thing will come off. But as long as Schwan: can obtain funds, why not?" Our group grew from two to six academic appointments by the time I retired from the chairmanship. The total number employed there was about double to triple that much. In addition we had about sixty graduate students. Then we established an undergraduate program, including about 100 undergraduates. Since my retirement from the chairmanship, it has grown substantially. The department now has some 250 undergraduate students, about 100 graduate students (one and a half times as many graduate students as I had), and twelve faculty members. The department is now called Bioengineering at Pennsylvania. Of all the engineering departments it is the one that is most attractive to young students. It attracts more high-quality applications than electrical engineering or computer science. </p>
+
I had the proposals, and I had the funding. Yes, I had to organize the funding. At that time I practically financed the total operation, and the university's support was small. It changed later on, however. The university committed more and more funds later. I would say that the university initially looked on with interest but they remained skeptical. They seemed to be saying, "We don't believe that this thing will come off. But as long as Schwan: can obtain funds, why not?" Our group grew from two to six academic appointments by the time I retired from the chairmanship. The total number employed there was about double to triple that much. In addition we had about sixty graduate students. Then we established an undergraduate program, including about 100 undergraduates. Since my retirement from the chairmanship, it has grown substantially. The department now has some 250 undergraduate students, about 100 graduate students (one and a half times as many graduate students as I had), and twelve faculty members. The department is now called Bioengineering at Pennsylvania. Of all the engineering departments it is the one that is most attractive to young students. It attracts more high-quality applications than electrical engineering or computer science.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>In 1956 you were the Visiting McKay Professor at the University of California at Berkeley. </p>
+
In 1956 you were the Visiting McKay Professor at the University of California at Berkeley.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did that come about? </p>
+
How did that come about?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I think it was primarily due to a man named Charles Susskind. You may have heard about him. He had an interest in the history of electrical engineering. I have some of his books here. This text was very well referenced. The book is about Heinrich Hertz. If you don't know it, maybe you'd be interested in it. Charles published several books like this. I suspect that he recommended me for the Visiting Professorship at Berkeley. </p>
+
I think it was primarily due to a man named Charles Susskind. You may have heard about him. He had an interest in the history of electrical engineering. I have some of his books here. This text was very well referenced. The book is about Heinrich Hertz. If you don't know it, maybe you'd be interested in it. Charles published several books like this. I suspect that he recommended me for the Visiting Professorship at Berkeley.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Why were you interested in going to Berkeley? </p>
+
Why were you interested in going to Berkeley?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Charles Susskind was also somewhat interested in the biological effects of non-ionizing radiation and biomedical engineering. He suggested that the department set up a laboratory of sorts under my leadership. The department asked if I would be interested in an associate professorship with tenure. Penn offered a full professorship. Penn gave me a full professorship in 1957 which I might not have gotten except for Berkeley. </p>
+
Charles Susskind was also somewhat interested in the biological effects of non-ionizing radiation and biomedical engineering. He suggested that the department set up a laboratory of sorts under my leadership. The department asked if I would be interested in an associate professorship with tenure. Penn offered a full professorship. Penn gave me a full professorship in 1957 which I might not have gotten except for Berkeley.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How long did you stay at Berkeley in 'fifty-six? </p>
+
How long did you stay at Berkeley in 'fifty-six?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>About one or two months. It was not very long. I gave a number of seminars, including some at Stanford. Charles let the other people in the bay area know that I was there. </p>
+
About one or two months. It was not very long. I gave a number of seminars, including some at Stanford. Charles let the other people in the bay area know that I was there.  
  
 
=== Vladimir Zworykin  ===
 
=== Vladimir Zworykin  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Since we're in the right time period, let me ask you about your contact with Vladimir Zworykin, who became very interested in medical electronics. How did you meet him? </p>
+
Since we're in the right time period, let me ask you about your contact with Vladimir Zworykin, who became very interested in medical electronics. How did you meet him?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I have a number of interesting experiences. He had been president of a meeting organized by the International Federation of Medical &amp; Biological Engineering in Tokyo. I attended that meeting. </p>
+
I have a number of interesting experiences. He had been president of a meeting organized by the International Federation of Medical &amp; Biological Engineering in Tokyo. I attended that meeting.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What year was this roughly? </p>
+
What year was this roughly?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That was about 'sixty-five. My first trip to Japan was in sixty-five. That was an international meeting. After that I continued on to Taiwan and then to Bangkok. On the flight from Taiwan to Bangkok, I happened to sit next to a man who revealed that he was a cousin of a prince of Thailand. He apologized that he couldn't entertain me in Thailand, as courtesy would demand, since he was busy returning with the queen from a trip around the world. But he would write me some recommendations for some restaurants on a piece of paper. I checked into my hotel where I met again Dr. Zworykin and Dr. Flory from Princeton. They were with their respective wives and I was alone. As a result I did many things with them. One evening I decided to try out one of the restaurants that the prince's cousin had recommended. I invited both the Zworykins and Florys to join me. We came to that place, and it was closed. I knocked at the door even though it was closed. I shoved that little piece of paper through the door and the door was opened. We went in. It was a beautiful, plush restaurant. We were the only guests. But we had to lie down as that was the custom in that restaurant. You couldn't sit; there were no chairs. You had to somehow manage to eat lying on your side on pillows. We had a fabulous meal there, all alone in that big place. We were just about through with the dinner when the door opened again. In walked a party headed by Mr. Nixon, and the Prime Minister from Thailand. Apparently that's why the restaurant was closed. But the recommendation of that passenger was strong enough to break that door. I will never forget Mr. Nixon lying there on his side trying to eat. </p>
+
That was about 'sixty-five. My first trip to Japan was in sixty-five. That was an international meeting. After that I continued on to Taiwan and then to Bangkok. On the flight from Taiwan to Bangkok, I happened to sit next to a man who revealed that he was a cousin of a prince of Thailand. He apologized that he couldn't entertain me in Thailand, as courtesy would demand, since he was busy returning with the queen from a trip around the world. But he would write me some recommendations for some restaurants on a piece of paper. I checked into my hotel where I met again Dr. Zworykin and Dr. Flory from Princeton. They were with their respective wives and I was alone. As a result I did many things with them. One evening I decided to try out one of the restaurants that the prince's cousin had recommended. I invited both the Zworykins and Florys to join me. We came to that place, and it was closed. I knocked at the door even though it was closed. I shoved that little piece of paper through the door and the door was opened. We went in. It was a beautiful, plush restaurant. We were the only guests. But we had to lie down as that was the custom in that restaurant. You couldn't sit; there were no chairs. You had to somehow manage to eat lying on your side on pillows. We had a fabulous meal there, all alone in that big place. We were just about through with the dinner when the door opened again. In walked a party headed by Mr. Nixon, and the Prime Minister from Thailand. Apparently that's why the restaurant was closed. But the recommendation of that passenger was strong enough to break that door. I will never forget Mr. Nixon lying there on his side trying to eat.  
  
<p>I knew [[Vladimir Zworykin|Zworykin]] since the early 'fifties, as a matter of fact. I knew him for his committee work in the IRE. </p>
+
I knew [[Vladimir Zworykin|Zworykin]] since the early 'fifties, as a matter of fact. I knew him for his committee work in the IRE.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What work did he do in medical electronics? </p>
+
What work did he do in medical electronics?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>He had many relevant interests. He was one of the founders of the IRE Medical Electronics Group, now the IEEE-EMB Society. He was the driving force in founding the International Federation for Medical and Biological Engineering and its first president. He was interested in connecting obviously medically-related industries of all sorts. He became very much interested in telemetry, for example. In the [[RCA (Radio Corporation of America)|RCA laboratories]] he developed the technique of a pill that served as a monitor. A person would swallow it and it would go down through the esophagus and stomach and so on. You then could observe all sorts of very useful information including pH and temperatures. The "pill" could send them out to receivers while traveling through the body. </p>
+
He had many relevant interests. He was one of the founders of the IRE Medical Electronics Group, now the IEEE-EMB Society. He was the driving force in founding the International Federation for Medical and Biological Engineering and its first president. He was interested in connecting obviously medically-related industries of all sorts. He became very much interested in telemetry, for example. In the [[RCA (Radio Corporation of America)|RCA laboratories]] he developed the technique of a pill that served as a monitor. A person would swallow it and it would go down through the esophagus and stomach and so on. You then could observe all sorts of very useful information including pH and temperatures. The "pill" could send them out to receivers while traveling through the body.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did RCA work on such things? </p>
+
Did RCA work on such things?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. RCA developed the "radio pill." The radio pill never became very popular because the medical people didn't know what to do with it, really. When Zworykin was vice president of RCA, he was the prime mover in the development of the first American electron microscope. That was a substantial achievement. Then, of course, he developed the video technology, the television technology that made television what it is. It also made possible the imaging technologies which are now so important in the medical field. </p>
+
Yes. RCA developed the "radio pill." The radio pill never became very popular because the medical people didn't know what to do with it, really. When Zworykin was vice president of RCA, he was the prime mover in the development of the first American electron microscope. That was a substantial achievement. Then, of course, he developed the video technology, the television technology that made television what it is. It also made possible the imaging technologies which are now so important in the medical field.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were saying that there were quite a few things Zworykin had contributed to medical electronics. </p>
+
You were saying that there were quite a few things Zworykin had contributed to medical electronics.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. We met fairly frequently. We had quite a discussion about certain regulations and the constitution of the International Federation, which were adopted in due time. There was always the problem of proper representation of countries. I was primarily responsible for the International Federation adopting what I called the logarithmic rule. Not every country has the same vote. Small countries, say up to 100 members, had one vote. Countries up to ten times more had two votes, countries with ten times the population had three votes. That worked out satisfactorily. </p>
+
Yes. We met fairly frequently. We had quite a discussion about certain regulations and the constitution of the International Federation, which were adopted in due time. There was always the problem of proper representation of countries. I was primarily responsible for the International Federation adopting what I called the logarithmic rule. Not every country has the same vote. Small countries, say up to 100 members, had one vote. Countries up to ten times more had two votes, countries with ten times the population had three votes. That worked out satisfactorily.  
  
<p>When Zworykin became older we sometimes took them to a city in New Jersey where they liked to go, where almost only Russians live. He and his wife were both Russians. </p>
+
When Zworykin became older we sometimes took them to a city in New Jersey where they liked to go, where almost only Russians live. He and his wife were both Russians.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Oh!? </p>
+
Oh!?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I've forgotten its name. It was like being in Russia there. I took him there twice, and they liked it. I've forgotten what its name is. We became socially involved. He came and attended the wedding of our oldest daughter. </p>
+
I've forgotten its name. It was like being in Russia there. I took him there twice, and they liked it. I've forgotten what its name is. We became socially involved. He came and attended the wedding of our oldest daughter.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was he like as a person? </p>
+
What was he like as a person?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>He certainly was a gifted man. I think he had a tendency to be a little bit autocratic — as you find frequently in very accomplished men, in particular those coming from abroad. He told me much about his earlier life. He said that he studied engineering in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg again). As a youngster, he had decided to become an engineer and bring "the movies home wireless" — as he worded it as a young man. He told me that his first job in this country was with Westinghouse. </p>
+
He certainly was a gifted man. I think he had a tendency to be a little bit autocratic — as you find frequently in very accomplished men, in particular those coming from abroad. He told me much about his earlier life. He said that he studied engineering in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg again). As a youngster, he had decided to become an engineer and bring "the movies home wireless" — as he worded it as a young man. He told me that his first job in this country was with Westinghouse.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That's right. It was with Westinghouse. </p>
+
That's right. It was with Westinghouse.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>When he proposed the [[Television|television]] idea to RCA they permitted him to develop it. He said that after he got permission to do so, they set up what he called a barn, in Princeton. It then became a research center. They called him a crazy Russian for the ideas he worked on. </p>
+
When he proposed the [[Television|television]] idea to RCA they permitted him to develop it. He said that after he got permission to do so, they set up what he called a barn, in Princeton. It then became a research center. They called him a crazy Russian for the ideas he worked on.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was this radio pill his idea, do you think? </p>
+
Was this radio pill his idea, do you think?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I'm not quite sure. I could imagine it was. His mind was always active with regard to all sorts of things. He imagined all sorts of practical things. For example, he thought of a little pocket calculator that you can carry with you, which has your total medical information on it. He envisioned a phone hook-up, sort of a modem-like hook-up, where whenever you have a symptom, you could get properly hooked up to a specialist in the country. They listen to your heartbeat and other relevant things. His mind was always active with thinking. </p>
+
I'm not quite sure. I could imagine it was. His mind was always active with regard to all sorts of things. He imagined all sorts of practical things. For example, he thought of a little pocket calculator that you can carry with you, which has your total medical information on it. He envisioned a phone hook-up, sort of a modem-like hook-up, where whenever you have a symptom, you could get properly hooked up to a specialist in the country. They listen to your heartbeat and other relevant things. His mind was always active with thinking.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you explain why he became especially interested in the medical field in his later years? </p>
+
Can you explain why he became especially interested in the medical field in his later years?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. It was not only in his later years. I believe that television interested him very early. Of course that was not specifically limited to medicine. Certainly medical science motivated the development of the electron microscope. I remember a man named Hoffman issued some publications out of Princeton University in cooperation with Zworykin's laboratory which provided pictures of the surface of a erythrocyte, an indication about membrane structure. That was in the early 'fifties. That was done in cooperation with Princeton University though apparently motivated by Zworykin. Medical applications were not his only interest, but they emerged fairly early in his life. </p>
+
No. It was not only in his later years. I believe that television interested him very early. Of course that was not specifically limited to medicine. Certainly medical science motivated the development of the electron microscope. I remember a man named Hoffman issued some publications out of Princeton University in cooperation with Zworykin's laboratory which provided pictures of the surface of a erythrocyte, an indication about membrane structure. That was in the early 'fifties. That was done in cooperation with Princeton University though apparently motivated by Zworykin. Medical applications were not his only interest, but they emerged fairly early in his life.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was he always absorbed in his engineering work? Or did he have other interests? </p>
+
Was he always absorbed in his engineering work? Or did he have other interests?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not very many. I don't think he was a good businessman. He lived modestly. His house was rather simple. It became rapidly apparent to me that in spite of all his achievements, he did not benefit financially very much. Look what he potentially set in motion. </p>
+
Not very many. I don't think he was a good businessman. He lived modestly. His house was rather simple. It became rapidly apparent to me that in spite of all his achievements, he did not benefit financially very much. Look what he potentially set in motion.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When you'd get together with him, was it for basically conversation and going out to eat? </p>
+
When you'd get together with him, was it for basically conversation and going out to eat?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>In later years, yes. In earlier years, we met at scientific conferences. Subsequently we established personal contact — visiting each other in Princeton and Philadelphia. He inquired about an affiliation with the University of Pennsylvania. We would go out to dinner or have dinner at home. We sometimes invited them to our house at the seashore. Another colleague of his who died recently, also a member of the National Academy of Engineering, also visited with us. I've forgotten his name. Rajmanson, something like that. He was also vice president of RCA. </p>
+
In later years, yes. In earlier years, we met at scientific conferences. Subsequently we established personal contact — visiting each other in Princeton and Philadelphia. He inquired about an affiliation with the University of Pennsylvania. We would go out to dinner or have dinner at home. We sometimes invited them to our house at the seashore. Another colleague of his who died recently, also a member of the National Academy of Engineering, also visited with us. I've forgotten his name. Rajmanson, something like that. He was also vice president of RCA.  
  
 
== Interview: Second Day  ==
 
== Interview: Second Day  ==
Line 2,449: Line 2,449:
 
=== Relationship with and between Parents  ===
 
=== Relationship with and between Parents  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>This is the second day of the interview with Dr. Herman Schwan. It's the first of July 1992. The interviewer is Rik Nebeker:. You wanted to make some comments about the earlier session? </p>
+
This is the second day of the interview with Dr. Herman Schwan. It's the first of July 1992. The interviewer is Rik Nebeker:. You wanted to make some comments about the earlier session?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I would like to add a few comments. I haven't talked very much about my mother. I think I mentioned briefly that my parents separated. </p>
+
Yes. I would like to add a few comments. I haven't talked very much about my mother. I think I mentioned briefly that my parents separated.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Right. </p>
+
Right.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>As a matter of fact, their marriage was not a very happy one. They both came from well-to-do, upper-middle-class families. The disaster in Germany — its defeat in the First World War — and the subsequent stories which I've told you about inflation, depression, and my fathers dismissal, meant a tremendous reduction in the standard of living from what they'd experienced in their parents' houses. They were unaccustomed to poverty of course. The second thing I would say, they were both very liberal. My mother, in addition, was a strong feminist. She quite openly campaigned for women's rights in the early days. </p>
+
As a matter of fact, their marriage was not a very happy one. They both came from well-to-do, upper-middle-class families. The disaster in Germany — its defeat in the First World War — and the subsequent stories which I've told you about inflation, depression, and my fathers dismissal, meant a tremendous reduction in the standard of living from what they'd experienced in their parents' houses. They were unaccustomed to poverty of course. The second thing I would say, they were both very liberal. My mother, in addition, was a strong feminist. She quite openly campaigned for women's rights in the early days.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Is that right! </p>
+
Is that right!  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>My father didn't quite share her feminist feelings. But both were very liberal. They were anti-nationalistic, and democratically-oriented. They separated for the first time in 'thirty, came together again in 'thirty-four, and separated finally three years later. They never divorced. But of course separation enhanced our financial difficulties. </p>
+
My father didn't quite share her feminist feelings. But both were very liberal. They were anti-nationalistic, and democratically-oriented. They separated for the first time in 'thirty, came together again in 'thirty-four, and separated finally three years later. They never divorced. But of course separation enhanced our financial difficulties.  
  
 
=== Political Choices Under Nazis  ===
 
=== Political Choices Under Nazis  ===
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p><flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 3.mp3</flashmp3></p>
+
<flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 3.mp3</flashmp3>
  
<p>A second point which I was going to mention is one which is very critical to understanding what happened in Germany, in Russia, and, as a matter of fact, under communism elsewhere. We originally felt that you could fight dictatorship if you were determined to do so. We gave very little thought about how to accomplish that. My premise is that an unorganized minority without weapons has little chance to fight an organized, well-equipped majority. </p>
+
A second point which I was going to mention is one which is very critical to understanding what happened in Germany, in Russia, and, as a matter of fact, under communism elsewhere. We originally felt that you could fight dictatorship if you were determined to do so. We gave very little thought about how to accomplish that. My premise is that an unorganized minority without weapons has little chance to fight an organized, well-equipped majority.  
  
<p>The third comment which I want to make pertains to one's responsibility under such circumstances. Clearly, one cannot go out on the street with a gun and shoot Stalin or Hitler. That's impossible. One would be captured way before one even could attempt to undertake that sort of thing. One's chance to do something about such a system is to spread the decent message and try to establish contact with others. Another, one must try to transmit important information to the outside — at the risk of being called a traitor. Those are the only means available. Some tried the first strategy. Several assassination attempts were made on Hitler's life during the Nazi regime. The problem was that sooner or later, a spy would enter the organization, and the group would explode. That happened several times in Germany, and no doubt happened frequently in Russia, as well. </p>
+
The third comment which I want to make pertains to one's responsibility under such circumstances. Clearly, one cannot go out on the street with a gun and shoot Stalin or Hitler. That's impossible. One would be captured way before one even could attempt to undertake that sort of thing. One's chance to do something about such a system is to spread the decent message and try to establish contact with others. Another, one must try to transmit important information to the outside — at the risk of being called a traitor. Those are the only means available. Some tried the first strategy. Several assassination attempts were made on Hitler's life during the Nazi regime. The problem was that sooner or later, a spy would enter the organization, and the group would explode. That happened several times in Germany, and no doubt happened frequently in Russia, as well.  
  
<p>The next comment pertains to loyalty and disloyalty in general. How far should you go with your responsibilities in this regard? Well, I chose to try to transmit information to the outside. I didn't tell you about another experience I had which had a negative effect on me. After the war, Rajewsky approached me and asked me to sign a statement that he was always anti-Nazi in spite of the fact that he had been a member of the Nazi party. He wanted me to attest that he saved a number of Jews from persecution, hiding some of them in his house. </p>
+
The next comment pertains to loyalty and disloyalty in general. How far should you go with your responsibilities in this regard? Well, I chose to try to transmit information to the outside. I didn't tell you about another experience I had which had a negative effect on me. After the war, Rajewsky approached me and asked me to sign a statement that he was always anti-Nazi in spite of the fact that he had been a member of the Nazi party. He wanted me to attest that he saved a number of Jews from persecution, hiding some of them in his house.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were those statements true? </p>
+
Were those statements true?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I didn't know. I was initially weak enough to sign the statement. I had considerable qualms about signing it. A couple of days later I came back to him and said, "Herr Professor, I've written another statement in which I stated that although you knew that I was an anti-Nazi you gave me a job." I believe that was the case indeed. I said, "I shouldn't have signed the other statement. I don't know anything about your hiding Jewish people and so on." He gave me back the original certificate and accepted the weaker, second statement. But I know he considered me disloyal. Once again, I had run into that problem in my life, of not being loyal. Loyalty to one's nation and to one's employer is very important, you know. In retrospect today, I don't know if I would take those two actions again. I'm convinced that nine out of ten people — if not 99 out of 100 people — wouldn't act as I had acted on similar occasions. It's very, very demanding, of course. While Rajewsky frequently recommended me for all sorts of things like the Rajewsky Prize and other things, he nevertheless felt that I couldn't be trusted. His wife told me later that he admired me but that he felt that I was not trustworthy. So much about loyalty and one's responsibilities to mankind and one's society. It's a very delicate thing. Well, I sort of add those comments for whatever it's worth. </p>
+
I didn't know. I was initially weak enough to sign the statement. I had considerable qualms about signing it. A couple of days later I came back to him and said, "Herr Professor, I've written another statement in which I stated that although you knew that I was an anti-Nazi you gave me a job." I believe that was the case indeed. I said, "I shouldn't have signed the other statement. I don't know anything about your hiding Jewish people and so on." He gave me back the original certificate and accepted the weaker, second statement. But I know he considered me disloyal. Once again, I had run into that problem in my life, of not being loyal. Loyalty to one's nation and to one's employer is very important, you know. In retrospect today, I don't know if I would take those two actions again. I'm convinced that nine out of ten people — if not 99 out of 100 people — wouldn't act as I had acted on similar occasions. It's very, very demanding, of course. While Rajewsky frequently recommended me for all sorts of things like the Rajewsky Prize and other things, he nevertheless felt that I couldn't be trusted. His wife told me later that he admired me but that he felt that I was not trustworthy. So much about loyalty and one's responsibilities to mankind and one's society. It's a very delicate thing. Well, I sort of add those comments for whatever it's worth.  
  
 
=== Confiscated Equipment  ===
 
=== Confiscated Equipment  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I had another question or two about the World War II period. You say in something you've written that you had one or more magnetrons, that you could get ten to twenty centimeter microwaves during the war. How did you get those magnetrons? </p>
+
I had another question or two about the World War II period. You say in something you've written that you had one or more magnetrons, that you could get ten to twenty centimeter microwaves during the war. How did you get those magnetrons?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>From Siemens. I got two pieces of coaxial equipment, and they were driven by fixed-frequency magnetrons. </p>
+
From Siemens. I got two pieces of coaxial equipment, and they were driven by fixed-frequency magnetrons.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When did you get these during the war? </p>
+
When did you get these during the war?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I got them after the U-boat war started in earnest. Sometime after Rajewsky came back from Berlin. I used them on the project I told you about, the Chimney Sweeper project. </p>
+
I got them after the U-boat war started in earnest. Sometime after Rajewsky came back from Berlin. I used them on the project I told you about, the Chimney Sweeper project.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That was the name of it — Chimney Sweeper? </p>
+
That was the name of it — Chimney Sweeper?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Chimney Sweeper. That was the project, yes. About a year later, 1944, I got the two advanced high-frequency measuring systems. Apparently at that time the Germans were able to produce some magnetrons of low power output and operating at those frequencies. </p>
+
Chimney Sweeper. That was the project, yes. About a year later, 1944, I got the two advanced high-frequency measuring systems. Apparently at that time the Germans were able to produce some magnetrons of low power output and operating at those frequencies.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You also mentioned in one of your writings that after the war that equipment, including the magnetrons, was confiscated. </p>
+
You also mentioned in one of your writings that after the war that equipment, including the magnetrons, was confiscated.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. I didn't describe that in detail. Right after the Second World War, I was contacted by all sorts of people — scientists, technical personnel, all sorts of commissions, including English and American. I established a fairly good relationship with them. They were very helpful in many respects, and I tried to take care of the institute as best I could. All my equipment had been transported to central Germany. </p>
+
Yes. I didn't describe that in detail. Right after the Second World War, I was contacted by all sorts of people — scientists, technical personnel, all sorts of commissions, including English and American. I established a fairly good relationship with them. They were very helpful in many respects, and I tried to take care of the institute as best I could. All my equipment had been transported to central Germany.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Most of it? </p>
+
Most of it?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Most of the Germans — Rajewsky and most of his co-workers — moved away from Frankfurt. I decided to stay alone. How could I stay alone in Frankfurt? I had managed to get a statement that I was needed to carry on in Frankfurt from some sympathetic people at I.G. Farben. This statement had been endorsed by their Nazi official. I was determined that if I was found to be one of the very few people at the institute by some SS patrols, they might have said, "What are you doing here? You were supposed to go out." Then I could have shown them that piece of paper, thereby safeguarding myself. It was ridiculous to move farther on into Germany. The war was over. But all my equipment had been transported away. I knew where it had been transported. I told that to the Americans. One day two soldiers — a lieutenant and a soldier — came, and I drove a jeep with them to central Germany. </p>
+
Yes. Most of the Germans — Rajewsky and most of his co-workers — moved away from Frankfurt. I decided to stay alone. How could I stay alone in Frankfurt? I had managed to get a statement that I was needed to carry on in Frankfurt from some sympathetic people at I.G. Farben. This statement had been endorsed by their Nazi official. I was determined that if I was found to be one of the very few people at the institute by some SS patrols, they might have said, "What are you doing here? You were supposed to go out." Then I could have shown them that piece of paper, thereby safeguarding myself. It was ridiculous to move farther on into Germany. The war was over. But all my equipment had been transported away. I knew where it had been transported. I told that to the Americans. One day two soldiers — a lieutenant and a soldier — came, and I drove a jeep with them to central Germany.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Where was it? Do you recall? </p>
+
Where was it? Do you recall?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was northeast of Frankfurt about a hundred miles. We practically moved into the still-moving battle zone between the Americans and the Germans. I remember at various points we saw American trucks lying alongside the street which had exploded after hitting land mines. As a matter of fact, the soldiers were very anxious to avoid mines. At some spots we stopped, left the jeep, moved carefully aside, and one daring soldier drove over the suspected mine area. </p>
+
It was northeast of Frankfurt about a hundred miles. We practically moved into the still-moving battle zone between the Americans and the Germans. I remember at various points we saw American trucks lying alongside the street which had exploded after hitting land mines. As a matter of fact, the soldiers were very anxious to avoid mines. At some spots we stopped, left the jeep, moved carefully aside, and one daring soldier drove over the suspected mine area.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Goodness! </p>
+
Goodness!  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I shared their C-Rations with them during the trip. Well, anyhow, we came to that spot where I found all my equipment. </p>
+
I shared their C-Rations with them during the trip. Well, anyhow, we came to that spot where I found all my equipment.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It had been used by others in the group? </p>
+
It had been used by others in the group?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was just stored there. I transported the equipment back with the help of the Americans. They turned over the lower-frequency transmission line systems to me. But I never got back the high-frequency coaxial lines and the magnetrons. </p>
+
It was just stored there. I transported the equipment back with the help of the Americans. They turned over the lower-frequency transmission line systems to me. But I never got back the high-frequency coaxial lines and the magnetrons.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>They must have been technically knowledgeable to ask for them? </p>
+
They must have been technically knowledgeable to ask for them?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>These men weren't just soldiers. They were all members of special teams with scientific and technological backgrounds. </p>
+
These men weren't just soldiers. They were all members of special teams with scientific and technological backgrounds.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Do you think they were particularly interested in radar and radar-related work? </p>
+
Do you think they were particularly interested in radar and radar-related work?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Very much so. </p>
+
Yes. Very much so.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Let me ask a question that relates to this equipment. What was your success in getting a hold of more high-frequency equipment in Germany? Or was that just not possible in those couple of years after the war that you worked there? </p>
+
Let me ask a question that relates to this equipment. What was your success in getting a hold of more high-frequency equipment in Germany? Or was that just not possible in those couple of years after the war that you worked there?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No, I couldn't get anything further. As a matter of fact, the equipment which I was permitted to keep, extended up to one gigahertz frequency range. Almost within months, I'd established the equipment to work again. Then I carried out extensive measurements on blood, which led to the paper which I published together with Rajewsky. As I mentioned earlier, this paper became known to Hüber here at the University of Pennsylvania and led to my contact with the university. </p>
+
No, I couldn't get anything further. As a matter of fact, the equipment which I was permitted to keep, extended up to one gigahertz frequency range. Almost within months, I'd established the equipment to work again. Then I carried out extensive measurements on blood, which led to the paper which I published together with Rajewsky. As I mentioned earlier, this paper became known to Hüber here at the University of Pennsylvania and led to my contact with the university.  
  
 
=== Low-Frequency Measurement  ===
 
=== Low-Frequency Measurement  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When you moved to the Navy lab in Philadelphia, did you take any equipment with you? </p>
+
When you moved to the Navy lab in Philadelphia, did you take any equipment with you?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>From Germany? No. I left everything behind. It belonged to the institute. At the Navy I established very low-frequency equipment. The transmission line system in Germany operated between 100 and 1,000 megahertz, up to one gigahertz. In the Navy I concentrated on equipment measuring between ten hertz and 100 kilohertz. In Germany I worked with very high-frequency precision equipment. In the Navy I developed low frequency, high precision equipment which led to the discovery of entirely new phenomena at low frequencies. </p>
+
From Germany? No. I left everything behind. It belonged to the institute. At the Navy I established very low-frequency equipment. The transmission line system in Germany operated between 100 and 1,000 megahertz, up to one gigahertz. In the Navy I concentrated on equipment measuring between ten hertz and 100 kilohertz. In Germany I worked with very high-frequency precision equipment. In the Navy I developed low frequency, high precision equipment which led to the discovery of entirely new phenomena at low frequencies.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Can you describe this equipment a little bit more? These are devices for generating the electric fields at those frequencies? </p>
+
Can you describe this equipment a little bit more? These are devices for generating the electric fields at those frequencies?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. Generating the fields was standard technology. </p>
+
No. Generating the fields was standard technology.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Are they used for measuring? </p>
+
Are they used for measuring?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. The unresolved problem, or the inadequacies of the problem, was how to measure capacities of materials which were highly conductive. It follows from general principles that you need very high resolution to do this. Standard equipment was useless to achieve that high resolution. One important achievement was the calibration of the equipment. In other words, to get variable conductances to compare with the test samples and whose capacitive properties were known precisely. You couldn't purchase them. They were unavailable at the time. I developed a special technique in order to calibrate them. That required, however, the very high resolution of the equipment again, which had been made available. (See also endnote #5, on bridge design considerations.) </p>
+
Yes. The unresolved problem, or the inadequacies of the problem, was how to measure capacities of materials which were highly conductive. It follows from general principles that you need very high resolution to do this. Standard equipment was useless to achieve that high resolution. One important achievement was the calibration of the equipment. In other words, to get variable conductances to compare with the test samples and whose capacitive properties were known precisely. You couldn't purchase them. They were unavailable at the time. I developed a special technique in order to calibrate them. That required, however, the very high resolution of the equipment again, which had been made available. (See also endnote #5, on bridge design considerations.)  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was this conductance you were measuring? </p>
+
Was this conductance you were measuring?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I measured both conductance and capacitance of biological samples. </p>
+
I measured both conductance and capacitance of biological samples.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You were doing that by essentially matching those properties with some standards? </p>
+
You were doing that by essentially matching those properties with some standards?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, precisely. </p>
+
Yes, precisely.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>And the problem, as you say, was getting well-known standards? </p>
+
And the problem, as you say, was getting well-known standards?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Right. Precisely. </p>
+
Right. Precisely.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were there other people working on that problem? </p>
+
Were there other people working on that problem?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not to my knowledge. Except for some biophysicists, there was no interest in the capacitance properties of highly conducting biological systems. Most people are interested in dielectrics, which have very low losses. I was virtually the only one at the time who was working on the electric properties of biological systems at such low frequencies.<ref> The decision to investigate the electrical properties of cell suspensions and tissues at low frequencies was in part motivated by the work of Fricke and Cole at higher frequencies. Both had postulated that the cell membrane properties displayed "constant phase angle" behavior similar to that observed at the interface between a metal electrode and electrolyte. It is characterized by a frequency dependence of both resistance ad capacitance, such that the electrical phase angle of the interface does not change with frequency. But I thought that the behavior at higher frequencies could be explained by different postulates. Variability in cell size and shape and its interior components could simulate observed deviations from single time constant behavior. Such behavior is predicted by an equivalent circuit which puts the membrane capacitance in series with internal and extracellular fluid conductivities. Such single time constant behavior could be anticipated only for uniform cell size and spherical shape and no internal content of organelles and proteins. I also knew that red cell suspensions approximate the single time constant behavior much better than tissues, since they better fulfill at least some of the necessary assumptions. It became apparent to me that extension to lower frequencies would more clearly show if membranes display the constant phase angle law or not. However, it also became clear that this would require equipment of high resolution, able to detect with accuracy the small capacitive current component which reflects the membrane capacity. Conductance determinations alone would be inconclusive since the low frequency conductance is dominated by the strong contribution of the extracellular fluids. The question how the membrane behaves electrically was to emerge as a major topic of biophysical interest. To answer the question raised by the constant phase angle model was therefore important. Today, this constant phase angle concept is no longer used, and the conductive properties of the membrane are linked to its channels, as first formulated by the famous Hodgkin-Huxley model.</ref> Cole and Fricke had done that at higher frequencies where the problems were much less pronounced. No one really had attempted to do anything about the low frequencies. </p>
+
Not to my knowledge. Except for some biophysicists, there was no interest in the capacitance properties of highly conducting biological systems. Most people are interested in dielectrics, which have very low losses. I was virtually the only one at the time who was working on the electric properties of biological systems at such low frequencies.<ref> The decision to investigate the electrical properties of cell suspensions and tissues at low frequencies was in part motivated by the work of Fricke and Cole at higher frequencies. Both had postulated that the cell membrane properties displayed "constant phase angle" behavior similar to that observed at the interface between a metal electrode and electrolyte. It is characterized by a frequency dependence of both resistance ad capacitance, such that the electrical phase angle of the interface does not change with frequency. But I thought that the behavior at higher frequencies could be explained by different postulates. Variability in cell size and shape and its interior components could simulate observed deviations from single time constant behavior. Such behavior is predicted by an equivalent circuit which puts the membrane capacitance in series with internal and extracellular fluid conductivities. Such single time constant behavior could be anticipated only for uniform cell size and spherical shape and no internal content of organelles and proteins. I also knew that red cell suspensions approximate the single time constant behavior much better than tissues, since they better fulfill at least some of the necessary assumptions. It became apparent to me that extension to lower frequencies would more clearly show if membranes display the constant phase angle law or not. However, it also became clear that this would require equipment of high resolution, able to detect with accuracy the small capacitive current component which reflects the membrane capacity. Conductance determinations alone would be inconclusive since the low frequency conductance is dominated by the strong contribution of the extracellular fluids. The question how the membrane behaves electrically was to emerge as a major topic of biophysical interest. To answer the question raised by the constant phase angle model was therefore important. Today, this constant phase angle concept is no longer used, and the conductive properties of the membrane are linked to its channels, as first formulated by the famous Hodgkin-Huxley model.</ref> Cole and Fricke had done that at higher frequencies where the problems were much less pronounced. No one really had attempted to do anything about the low frequencies.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Was the neglect because of the instrumental problems or because the intellectual questions seemed to be used on the higher frequencies? </p>
+
Was the neglect because of the instrumental problems or because the intellectual questions seemed to be used on the higher frequencies?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Originally it was easier to measure both capacity and conductive problems at higher frequencies. That had been done by Cole and Fricke. Let me make a simple diagram. The ordinate is E, the abscissa F. Epsilon stands for capacitance dielectric constant. That is frequency f. Sigma stands for electric conductance. That diagram is for muscle tissue. You see, the properties change in three distinct steps, which I have labeled alpha, beta, and gamma. Likewise, conductivity here, here, and here. Now the general problem is not only to measure such properties, but why those steps exist. What are the underlying mechanisms? Cole and Fricke had essentially explained the beta step. I refined their mathematics for the beta step and I added the gamma and the alpha steps to it. I also explained the gamma and the alpha steps. </p>
+
Originally it was easier to measure both capacity and conductive problems at higher frequencies. That had been done by Cole and Fricke. Let me make a simple diagram. The ordinate is E, the abscissa F. Epsilon stands for capacitance dielectric constant. That is frequency f. Sigma stands for electric conductance. That diagram is for muscle tissue. You see, the properties change in three distinct steps, which I have labeled alpha, beta, and gamma. Likewise, conductivity here, here, and here. Now the general problem is not only to measure such properties, but why those steps exist. What are the underlying mechanisms? Cole and Fricke had essentially explained the beta step. I refined their mathematics for the beta step and I added the gamma and the alpha steps to it. I also explained the gamma and the alpha steps.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Had they measured the capacitance within those ranges? </p>
+
Had they measured the capacitance within those ranges?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. At that time the equipment was not available at those high frequencies. You couldn't generate the high frequencies in their time. That was at first possible after the Second World War. And at the low frequencies their equipment had insufficient resolution for the reasons which I just stated to you. Originally no one anticipated this alpha step here. Some people did anticipate perhaps the gamma step here, but no one knew anything about it. There were no indications whatsoever. That came in entirely unexpected. </p>
+
No. At that time the equipment was not available at those high frequencies. You couldn't generate the high frequencies in their time. That was at first possible after the Second World War. And at the low frequencies their equipment had insufficient resolution for the reasons which I just stated to you. Originally no one anticipated this alpha step here. Some people did anticipate perhaps the gamma step here, but no one knew anything about it. There were no indications whatsoever. That came in entirely unexpected.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When did you first find evidence of that low frequency alpha step? Do you recall? </p>
+
When did you first find evidence of that low frequency alpha step? Do you recall?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Rather early. I think it was already late 'forty-eight — one and a half years after I came to the Navy. By that time the equipment was finished. I put it to use. The very first time that I measured muscle properties with it, I saw it emerging. </p>
+
Rather early. I think it was already late 'forty-eight — one and a half years after I came to the Navy. By that time the equipment was finished. I put it to use. The very first time that I measured muscle properties with it, I saw it emerging.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>And you were the first one to make such measurements in that range? </p>
+
And you were the first one to make such measurements in that range?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Now I don't know if it was late 'forty-eight or early 'forty-nine. Say, middle 'forty-nine. Shortly thereafter, in early 1950, I presented that result at the American Physiological Society. </p>
+
Yes. Now I don't know if it was late 'forty-eight or early 'forty-nine. Say, middle 'forty-nine. Shortly thereafter, in early 1950, I presented that result at the American Physiological Society.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were there other people working in that area by that time? </p>
+
Were there other people working in that area by that time?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. There were some people somewhat knowledgeable, particularly Sam Talbot, whom I mentioned in many of my papers, and Otto Schmitt, whom you also may have heard about. It was at that meeting that I met Otto and Sam Talbot for the first time. I remember very well. Both those people — who were to become close friends of mine — doubted the result. They thought is was an electric artifact, really caused by electrode polarization. Believe me! [Chuckling.] I knew at the time a lot about electrode polarization. </p>
+
No. There were some people somewhat knowledgeable, particularly Sam Talbot, whom I mentioned in many of my papers, and Otto Schmitt, whom you also may have heard about. It was at that meeting that I met Otto and Sam Talbot for the first time. I remember very well. Both those people — who were to become close friends of mine — doubted the result. They thought is was an electric artifact, really caused by electrode polarization. Believe me! [Chuckling.] I knew at the time a lot about electrode polarization.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did they express those doubts at the meeting? </p>
+
Did they express those doubts at the meeting?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Not openly, but they talked to me in a private discussion after my presentation. </p>
+
Not openly, but they talked to me in a private discussion after my presentation.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>When did people replicate this in other laboratories? </p>
+
When did people replicate this in other laboratories?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The muscle work took quite some time to replicate elsewhere. The first replication came about at first in 1964 at a British laboratory headed by a Nobel Prize winner. It was Cole who brought my work to the attention of the British physiologists, and they decided that must be checked. That was important stuff. </p>
+
The muscle work took quite some time to replicate elsewhere. The first replication came about at first in 1964 at a British laboratory headed by a Nobel Prize winner. It was Cole who brought my work to the attention of the British physiologists, and they decided that must be checked. That was important stuff.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Whose laboratory was that? </p>
+
Whose laboratory was that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Katz's Laboratory. The work was done by Falk and Fatt. They published two long articles in the Proceedings of the Royal Society about it, confirming and extending my work. And then there was a flutter of publications about it. It turned out to be physiologically very significant. </p>
+
Katz's Laboratory. The work was done by Falk and Fatt. They published two long articles in the Proceedings of the Royal Society about it, confirming and extending my work. And then there was a flutter of publications about it. It turned out to be physiologically very significant.  
  
 
=== Muscle Cells and Relaxation Effect  ===
 
=== Muscle Cells and Relaxation Effect  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>And how do you explain the vacuum and the fact that suddenly, in the mid-'sixties, a lot of people were interested? </p>
+
And how do you explain the vacuum and the fact that suddenly, in the mid-'sixties, a lot of people were interested?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The fact that there was first a vacuum simply resulted from the fact that people didn't understand what I was doing. Cole and Fricke, yes. I met Cole and Fricke. But most of the physiologists didn't even understand Cole. I remember very well when I came to the University of Pennsylvania, that the physiologists often said to me, "Herman, you seem to understand that work of Cole. Can you explain it to us? We have no idea if that's important or not." I tried my best, of course, to do so. The physiologists and early biophysicists just were not trained enough to understand the relevance of this work. It took quite some time. I think an interest in such biophysical investigation started to develop very slowly. </p>
+
The fact that there was first a vacuum simply resulted from the fact that people didn't understand what I was doing. Cole and Fricke, yes. I met Cole and Fricke. But most of the physiologists didn't even understand Cole. I remember very well when I came to the University of Pennsylvania, that the physiologists often said to me, "Herman, you seem to understand that work of Cole. Can you explain it to us? We have no idea if that's important or not." I tried my best, of course, to do so. The physiologists and early biophysicists just were not trained enough to understand the relevance of this work. It took quite some time. I think an interest in such biophysical investigation started to develop very slowly.  
  
<p>Interest increased after two British physiologists, Hodgkin and Huxley, got the Nobel Prize for their work on the electric properties of nerve axons. Then interest in that sort of work grew fairly fast. Cole told me that he brought my work to the attention of Falk and Fatt. My first presentation was in 1950 at the American Physiological Society meeting in Columbus, Ohio. Then I tried to publish it in physiological journals. There was no biophysical journal at that time. I was turned down twice, by two journals. I was very discouraged. And then I submitted it to a German journal where it was published in 'fifty-five — five years after the Columbus meeting. By 'fifty-six I did have a reputation in the field and I was asked to write a review article on electric properties of biological materials. I wrote a long review article which was published in 'fifty-seven, where I reported for the first time in English about all that sort of work. There was only that German publication before and the abstract, which doesn't say much. This review article was a great success. I think it has been quoted in the Citation Index almost a thousand times. It's still being quoted since it was the first really comprehensive treatment of electrical properties of biological materials. Apparently Cole sent a reprint of this article to the British investigators sometime, I don't know when. They published their work in 'sixty-four. </p>
+
Interest increased after two British physiologists, Hodgkin and Huxley, got the Nobel Prize for their work on the electric properties of nerve axons. Then interest in that sort of work grew fairly fast. Cole told me that he brought my work to the attention of Falk and Fatt. My first presentation was in 1950 at the American Physiological Society meeting in Columbus, Ohio. Then I tried to publish it in physiological journals. There was no biophysical journal at that time. I was turned down twice, by two journals. I was very discouraged. And then I submitted it to a German journal where it was published in 'fifty-five — five years after the Columbus meeting. By 'fifty-six I did have a reputation in the field and I was asked to write a review article on electric properties of biological materials. I wrote a long review article which was published in 'fifty-seven, where I reported for the first time in English about all that sort of work. There was only that German publication before and the abstract, which doesn't say much. This review article was a great success. I think it has been quoted in the Citation Index almost a thousand times. It's still being quoted since it was the first really comprehensive treatment of electrical properties of biological materials. Apparently Cole sent a reprint of this article to the British investigators sometime, I don't know when. They published their work in 'sixty-four.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Were the British interested because of the implications for biological research and possible applications? </p>
+
Were the British interested because of the implications for biological research and possible applications?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>They were interested in both fundamental scientific achievements as well as the possible applications. Microscopy had made substantial advances. Using advanced microscopic techniques, it was found by 1964 that muscle cells possessed a so-called tubular system. In other words, tube-like structures from the outside of a muscle cell penetrate to the interior. It's called the sarcoplasmic reticulum, or tubular, system. People started to suspect that the mechanism of contraction in muscle tissue involves a conduction of electricity inside the tubular systems. We developed a method to measure this phenomenon, what I called alpha effect. This revealed the frequency-dependent capability of the electric charge to penetrate from the outer membrane into the tubular system. This alpha dispersion effect was proof that this hypotheses was correct. Our work was fundamental. Later, the British recognized that it related to the practical question of the relationship of the electric tubular system and muscle contraction. Yes, that was a very important question indeed. </p>
+
They were interested in both fundamental scientific achievements as well as the possible applications. Microscopy had made substantial advances. Using advanced microscopic techniques, it was found by 1964 that muscle cells possessed a so-called tubular system. In other words, tube-like structures from the outside of a muscle cell penetrate to the interior. It's called the sarcoplasmic reticulum, or tubular, system. People started to suspect that the mechanism of contraction in muscle tissue involves a conduction of electricity inside the tubular systems. We developed a method to measure this phenomenon, what I called alpha effect. This revealed the frequency-dependent capability of the electric charge to penetrate from the outer membrane into the tubular system. This alpha dispersion effect was proof that this hypotheses was correct. Our work was fundamental. Later, the British recognized that it related to the practical question of the relationship of the electric tubular system and muscle contraction. Yes, that was a very important question indeed.  
  
<p>But there was another development which had taken place in the meantime. I had observed first in 1954 or 1955 that this alpha effect also occurs with dead material, e.g. suspensions of glass particles and in colloidal systems. The similarity with biological stuff was stunning to me. Fricke had already measured suspensions of glass particles. But due to the inadequacy of his equipment he could only observe the start of the alpha step. Since he could only see the beginning, many people suspected that it was an electrode artifact since such artifacts can do precisely that sort of thing. I was able to do things with my high precision equipment which Fricke couldn't do with his older equipment. I could extend the frequency range to lower frequencies with higher accuracy. As a result I could see that the electrical properties of particles suspensions had saturated again. This was what we called a true relaxation effect. We published that first in 1957 and then in detail in 'sixty-two in the Journal of Physical Chemistry. That was at once recognized as a breakthrough in dielectrics. I got letters from leading dielectrics people calling it the most significant breakthrough in twenty years and after the Second World War in the field of dielectrics. </p>
+
But there was another development which had taken place in the meantime. I had observed first in 1954 or 1955 that this alpha effect also occurs with dead material, e.g. suspensions of glass particles and in colloidal systems. The similarity with biological stuff was stunning to me. Fricke had already measured suspensions of glass particles. But due to the inadequacy of his equipment he could only observe the start of the alpha step. Since he could only see the beginning, many people suspected that it was an electrode artifact since such artifacts can do precisely that sort of thing. I was able to do things with my high precision equipment which Fricke couldn't do with his older equipment. I could extend the frequency range to lower frequencies with higher accuracy. As a result I could see that the electrical properties of particles suspensions had saturated again. This was what we called a true relaxation effect. We published that first in 1957 and then in detail in 'sixty-two in the Journal of Physical Chemistry. That was at once recognized as a breakthrough in dielectrics. I got letters from leading dielectrics people calling it the most significant breakthrough in twenty years and after the Second World War in the field of dielectrics.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. This is 94 on your publications list, "Low frequency dielectric dispersion of colloidal particles?" </p>
+
I see. This is 94 on your publications list, "Low frequency dielectric dispersion of colloidal particles?"  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. With Schwarz, Maczuk and Pauly. </p>
+
Yes. With Schwarz, Maczuk and Pauly.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Did that explain that alpha effect in biological materials? </p>
+
Did that explain that alpha effect in biological materials?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Only partly. Later scientists discovered that the tubular system in tissue has electrical charges stored. They also found that effect occurred on the surface of glass particles and colloidal particles. A cloud of counter charges oscillates around the charged solid particles. They are responsible for the alpha-effect of colloidal suspensions. Actually, today I differentiate between a variety of alpha effects responsible for the dielectric behavior of cells and tissues. </p>
+
Only partly. Later scientists discovered that the tubular system in tissue has electrical charges stored. They also found that effect occurred on the surface of glass particles and colloidal particles. A cloud of counter charges oscillates around the charged solid particles. They are responsible for the alpha-effect of colloidal suspensions. Actually, today I differentiate between a variety of alpha effects responsible for the dielectric behavior of cells and tissues.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. It sounds like one way that you've operated is by careful measurements over some range, looking for steps or changes, and then trying to identify the mechanisms for those. </p>
+
I see. It sounds like one way that you've operated is by careful measurements over some range, looking for steps or changes, and then trying to identify the mechanisms for those.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Precisely. Yes. Not only measuring them, but trying to find out what's behind it. Why are the data such as observed? </p>
+
Precisely. Yes. Not only measuring them, but trying to find out what's behind it. Why are the data such as observed?  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>And it has turned out that it's not a single effect in some of these cases. </p>
+
And it has turned out that it's not a single effect in some of these cases.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
+
Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>To return to the question of the instrumentation, I'm very interested in that side of your work because I know that's been an important contribution of yours to the field. Could we carry the story of your instrumentation on a little bit further? </p>
+
To return to the question of the instrumentation, I'm very interested in that side of your work because I know that's been an important contribution of yours to the field. Could we carry the story of your instrumentation on a little bit further?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>All right, yes. </p>
+
All right, yes.  
  
 
=== High-Frequency Measurement  ===
 
=== High-Frequency Measurement  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>So at the Navy lab you developed these techniques for the low frequency measurements of conductance and capacitance. What were the next improvements in instrumentation that you made? </p>
+
So at the Navy lab you developed these techniques for the low frequency measurements of conductance and capacitance. What were the next improvements in instrumentation that you made?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>The very high frequency range. Right away I constructed a refinement of the equipment which I'd had in Frankfurt at the University of Pennsylvania.<ref> Kam Li, another graduate student supported by me, helped test the equipment with electrolytes. We then used the equipment to collect extensive tissue data in the range from 0.1 to 1 GHz. These data were published in the Proceedings of the IRE. They and additional data in other frequency ranges above and below the 0.1 - 1 GHz range (including data I had collected while in Frankfurt) were published in several of my reviews. They provided the fundamentals on which all later discussions of microwave and RF-dosimetry and standards were based.</ref> I used commercial equipment to measure in the radio frequency range. As a matter of fact, Fricke, who was not doing anymore experimental work, was so kind as to give me his equipment. But at that time his equipment was outdated. I decided to get all sorts of commercial equipment available then and made out better with it. Another early advance was acoustics. There we made substantial headway, primarily due to Ed Carstensen. He is now also a member of the National Academy of Engineering. He just was awarded the IEEE EBS Achievement Award. I called him up on Monday to congratulate him. </p>
+
The very high frequency range. Right away I constructed a refinement of the equipment which I'd had in Frankfurt at the University of Pennsylvania.<ref> Kam Li, another graduate student supported by me, helped test the equipment with electrolytes. We then used the equipment to collect extensive tissue data in the range from 0.1 to 1 GHz. These data were published in the Proceedings of the IRE. They and additional data in other frequency ranges above and below the 0.1 - 1 GHz range (including data I had collected while in Frankfurt) were published in several of my reviews. They provided the fundamentals on which all later discussions of microwave and RF-dosimetry and standards were based.</ref> I used commercial equipment to measure in the radio frequency range. As a matter of fact, Fricke, who was not doing anymore experimental work, was so kind as to give me his equipment. But at that time his equipment was outdated. I decided to get all sorts of commercial equipment available then and made out better with it. Another early advance was acoustics. There we made substantial headway, primarily due to Ed Carstensen. He is now also a member of the National Academy of Engineering. He just was awarded the IEEE EBS Achievement Award. I called him up on Monday to congratulate him.  
  
<p>He became a very well-known man. We included acoustics in this master plan that I told you about — to measure properties and apply them for clinical diagnostic and therapeutic purposes. He primarily carried the acoustics part. I was heavily involved, too, but he developed the project. He got his Ph.D. for such efforts. He developed high precision substitution techniques. So, we worked together in the acoustics field. As a matter of fact, while he carried the ball in the acoustics field, I did the equivalent in the electrical field. You'll find here some publications we worked on together in the acoustics field. Ed and I took measurements together and we shared publications. You'll find about a dozen publications we did together in the list of references. </p>
+
He became a very well-known man. We included acoustics in this master plan that I told you about — to measure properties and apply them for clinical diagnostic and therapeutic purposes. He primarily carried the acoustics part. I was heavily involved, too, but he developed the project. He got his Ph.D. for such efforts. He developed high precision substitution techniques. So, we worked together in the acoustics field. As a matter of fact, while he carried the ball in the acoustics field, I did the equivalent in the electrical field. You'll find here some publications we worked on together in the acoustics field. Ed and I took measurements together and we shared publications. You'll find about a dozen publications we did together in the list of references.  
  
 
=== Acoustical Work and Echocardiography  ===
 
=== Acoustical Work and Echocardiography  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Yes, I noticed that three of the four of your ultrasound or acoustic papers that were honored in that benchmark volume were with Ed Carstensen. </p>
+
Yes, I noticed that three of the four of your ultrasound or acoustic papers that were honored in that benchmark volume were with Ed Carstensen.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Precisely. That was rather novel equipment. Again, what we created was equipment of the highest resolution yet available. We could see acoustic properties which couldn't be seen before. We recognized the mechanism which was responsible for sound absorption in blood which before was unknown. </p>
+
Precisely. That was rather novel equipment. Again, what we created was equipment of the highest resolution yet available. We could see acoustic properties which couldn't be seen before. We recognized the mechanism which was responsible for sound absorption in blood which before was unknown.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>How did your background help you develop that equipment? Was it the background you had in the measurement of electrical properties, or Carstensen's background? </p>
+
How did your background help you develop that equipment? Was it the background you had in the measurement of electrical properties, or Carstensen's background?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Carstensen was the stronger one since he had more experience with ultrasound. I believed that only substitution technology and focusing on mechanism could do the trick in solving the problem. But his background in acoustics was excellent. During the war he had worked at a Navy Laboratory in Orlando, Florida, on acoustic device techniques for submarine detection, I believe. Then when he came to Penn, in order to get his doctorate, he got in touch with the Department of Physical Medicine, where he gave courses on diathermy and things like that. I think I mentioned that to you last time. He was one of the people who established early contact with me while I was still with the Navy. </p>
+
Carstensen was the stronger one since he had more experience with ultrasound. I believed that only substitution technology and focusing on mechanism could do the trick in solving the problem. But his background in acoustics was excellent. During the war he had worked at a Navy Laboratory in Orlando, Florida, on acoustic device techniques for submarine detection, I believe. Then when he came to Penn, in order to get his doctorate, he got in touch with the Department of Physical Medicine, where he gave courses on diathermy and things like that. I think I mentioned that to you last time. He was one of the people who established early contact with me while I was still with the Navy.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What were the motivations for studying acoustic properties? I know that a kind of acoustic diathermy was being used in those years. </p>
+
What were the motivations for studying acoustic properties? I know that a kind of acoustic diathermy was being used in those years.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes, that was developed first in Germany. As a matter of fact, it was in Germany where I first came in contact with acoustics. When I was put in charge of the institute in Frankfurt, a young man, J. Lehmann, entered the institute. He approached me, and I gave him a working-place. He was a medical doctor and he was very interested in acoustics. By that time Siemens was not building electrical equipment. </p>
+
Yes, that was developed first in Germany. As a matter of fact, it was in Germany where I first came in contact with acoustics. When I was put in charge of the institute in Frankfurt, a young man, J. Lehmann, entered the institute. He approached me, and I gave him a working-place. He was a medical doctor and he was very interested in acoustics. By that time Siemens was not building electrical equipment.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>They weren't allowed to do that? </p>
+
They weren't allowed to do that?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Precisely. So they concentrated on acoustics. They introduced bioacoustics work and ultrasonic diathermy. They and Lehmann became interested in the biological effects of ultrasonic diathermy. While I didn't directly participate in Lehmann's work, I endorsed it nevertheless. I followed it with the keenest interest. So I had already developed an interest in the field when I met with Ed Carstensen and was aware of relevant current developments.<ref> While at the Navy, I had been exposed to a variety of ultrasonic interests. I helped to evaluate the noise spectrum generated by the powerful afterburners of some of the strongest jet airplanes the Navy had at the time. This noise spectrum extended all the way from ultrasound to below audible, including strong vibrational irregular bursts. The Navy was concerned about health effects. Ear damage had been reported. The design of appropriate ear defenders was a high priority. I also read a good deal about earlier American work concerned with the effects of ultrasound on tissues and cells, including the excellent work by Wood and Loomis. I obtained ultrasonic equipment and studied the effects of ultrasound on red blood cell lysis. I never entirely finished this work since the low-frequency work took over.</ref> </p>
+
Precisely. So they concentrated on acoustics. They introduced bioacoustics work and ultrasonic diathermy. They and Lehmann became interested in the biological effects of ultrasonic diathermy. While I didn't directly participate in Lehmann's work, I endorsed it nevertheless. I followed it with the keenest interest. So I had already developed an interest in the field when I met with Ed Carstensen and was aware of relevant current developments.<ref> While at the Navy, I had been exposed to a variety of ultrasonic interests. I helped to evaluate the noise spectrum generated by the powerful afterburners of some of the strongest jet airplanes the Navy had at the time. This noise spectrum extended all the way from ultrasound to below audible, including strong vibrational irregular bursts. The Navy was concerned about health effects. Ear damage had been reported. The design of appropriate ear defenders was a high priority. I also read a good deal about earlier American work concerned with the effects of ultrasound on tissues and cells, including the excellent work by Wood and Loomis. I obtained ultrasonic equipment and studied the effects of ultrasound on red blood cell lysis. I never entirely finished this work since the low-frequency work took over.</ref>  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>And Ed had worked with such equipment during the war? </p>
+
And Ed had worked with such equipment during the war?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Ed had worked with under-sound listening devices during the war, and he knew how to focus ultrasound and about acoustic transducers. He had working experience with instrumentation. </p>
+
Ed had worked with under-sound listening devices during the war, and he knew how to focus ultrasound and about acoustic transducers. He had working experience with instrumentation.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What was his motivation for working in this area of acoustic properties of biological materials? </p>
+
What was his motivation for working in this area of acoustic properties of biological materials?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I don't know precisely, it was so long ago. I met him while I was still working for the Navy, he had not yet focused in on a particular problem for his Ph.D. thesis. He was just about finishing taking courses. He had established an interest in biophysics, broadly speaking, due to his contact with the Department of Physical Medicine. But he hadn't formulated a topic yet. I think the topic emerged based on discussions with me. </p>
+
I don't know precisely, it was so long ago. I met him while I was still working for the Navy, he had not yet focused in on a particular problem for his Ph.D. thesis. He was just about finishing taking courses. He had established an interest in biophysics, broadly speaking, due to his contact with the Department of Physical Medicine. But he hadn't formulated a topic yet. I think the topic emerged based on discussions with me.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Had you already decided that acoustic properties of biological materials would be part of your program? </p>
+
Had you already decided that acoustic properties of biological materials would be part of your program?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>No. Originally my program broadly addressed electric properties. I had an interest in acoustics, but I didn't feel competent to undertake such work on my own. It was due to Ed establishing contact with me that we added the ultrasonic part. We called it the Electric and Acoustic Properties Program. So he had a significant influence on me, and I, of course, on him. </p>
+
No. Originally my program broadly addressed electric properties. I had an interest in acoustics, but I didn't feel competent to undertake such work on my own. It was due to Ed establishing contact with me that we added the ultrasonic part. We called it the Electric and Acoustic Properties Program. So he had a significant influence on me, and I, of course, on him.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Since we've gotten into the acoustic properties area of your work, maybe we can follow that a bit more. Did you continue to work in that area? </p>
+
Since we've gotten into the acoustic properties area of your work, maybe we can follow that a bit more. Did you continue to work in that area?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Ed left us in 1955 to take a position with the Army, the Army Biophysics Laboratory in Fredericksburg, Maryland. There were several good biological laboratories and there was a biophysics division where he could do biophysics work. He moved there, and applied his electrical expertise gained at Penn by establishing a laboratory to measure electrical properties of bacteria and so on. I, in turn, continued to maintain the equipment which he had developed and trained people to use it. In particular, there was Helmuth Pauly, who came from Germany, who rapidly gained competence in using the equipment, and then subsequently wrote one of the classical papers in the bioacoustics field. The Pauly-Schwan: paper on the acoustic properties of liver tissue is also a benchmark paper. To this day it's considered a pioneering job about acoustic properties of tissues. </p>
+
Yes. Ed left us in 1955 to take a position with the Army, the Army Biophysics Laboratory in Fredericksburg, Maryland. There were several good biological laboratories and there was a biophysics division where he could do biophysics work. He moved there, and applied his electrical expertise gained at Penn by establishing a laboratory to measure electrical properties of bacteria and so on. I, in turn, continued to maintain the equipment which he had developed and trained people to use it. In particular, there was Helmuth Pauly, who came from Germany, who rapidly gained competence in using the equipment, and then subsequently wrote one of the classical papers in the bioacoustics field. The Pauly-Schwan: paper on the acoustic properties of liver tissue is also a benchmark paper. To this day it's considered a pioneering job about acoustic properties of tissues.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>That was done in your laboratory at Penn? </p>
+
That was done in your laboratory at Penn?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>That was done in my laboratory, yes. And as I say, when Pauly joined us for three years, I familiarized him with the acoustic equipment; he learned it rapidly, and did an excellent job. He was a very outstanding man. Later on, after he left, Peter Edmonds joined my lab. Peter Edmonds had established an excellent acoustic background in England. By then we had a national reputation for doing good acoustic work, and he approached me. He wanted to work in my laboratory, and he carried on with acoustic work. He's now at the Stanford Research Institute; he continues to be very much interested in the subject matter and is supported by NIH even though he is approaching retirement age. He was with us quite some time until he was hired by the IEEE. Do you remember the old Secretary, Emberson? He was a major figure at IEEE, carrying the day-to-day load as Secretary of first the IRE and then the IEEE. He retired about ten years ago. Emberson and the IEEE had become very much interested in engineering in medicine and biology and wanted to establish an administrative emphasis. They hired Peter Edmonds. So Peter Edmonds joined the staff in New York and was there for, oh, I guess, about ten years. And then he moved to Stanford where he still is.<ref> Peter Edmond's acoustic work included shear wave absorption and extension of absorption measurements to frequencies in excess of 100 MHz, thereby providing a better definition of the relaxational spectrum characteristic of biological macromolecules. He joined IEEE as the need for evaluating the relationship of the biomedical engineering community to the IEEE became apparent. I have reported in several articles and in this interview on these efforts during the early 1960s. A report by Edmond, "Survey of discussions, 1965 - 1967", gives details and is in my files.</ref> </p>
+
That was done in my laboratory, yes. And as I say, when Pauly joined us for three years, I familiarized him with the acoustic equipment; he learned it rapidly, and did an excellent job. He was a very outstanding man. Later on, after he left, Peter Edmonds joined my lab. Peter Edmonds had established an excellent acoustic background in England. By then we had a national reputation for doing good acoustic work, and he approached me. He wanted to work in my laboratory, and he carried on with acoustic work. He's now at the Stanford Research Institute; he continues to be very much interested in the subject matter and is supported by NIH even though he is approaching retirement age. He was with us quite some time until he was hired by the IEEE. Do you remember the old Secretary, Emberson? He was a major figure at IEEE, carrying the day-to-day load as Secretary of first the IRE and then the IEEE. He retired about ten years ago. Emberson and the IEEE had become very much interested in engineering in medicine and biology and wanted to establish an administrative emphasis. They hired Peter Edmonds. So Peter Edmonds joined the staff in New York and was there for, oh, I guess, about ten years. And then he moved to Stanford where he still is.<ref> Peter Edmond's acoustic work included shear wave absorption and extension of absorption measurements to frequencies in excess of 100 MHz, thereby providing a better definition of the relaxational spectrum characteristic of biological macromolecules. He joined IEEE as the need for evaluating the relationship of the biomedical engineering community to the IEEE became apparent. I have reported in several articles and in this interview on these efforts during the early 1960s. A report by Edmond, "Survey of discussions, 1965 - 1967", gives details and is in my files.</ref>  
  
<p>After Peter Edmonds left, I tried to get competent people to carry on the acoustics work. I had two students who did quite good work, but by 'seventy-three, my chairmanship and my being head of the laboratory ceased. My time was over, and I reduced my activities. Since that time no acoustic work has been carried out. </p>
+
After Peter Edmonds left, I tried to get competent people to carry on the acoustics work. I had two students who did quite good work, but by 'seventy-three, my chairmanship and my being head of the laboratory ceased. My time was over, and I reduced my activities. Since that time no acoustic work has been carried out.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. Was there a direct connection between the acoustic work and the electrical work in your laboratory, or were those separate lines of research? </p>
+
I see. Was there a direct connection between the acoustic work and the electrical work in your laboratory, or were those separate lines of research?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>As far as instrumentation was concerned, entirely different. </p>
+
As far as instrumentation was concerned, entirely different.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What about the practical? </p>
+
What about the practical?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Many basics are similar. The total intellectual approach is to sort of take tissue apart and measure what components contribute to the processes and properties. In the acoustic case, we tried to characterize the frequency dependence by dispersive effects, as we called them. Again, the rationale we used was almost identical. The relevant mathematics and the applicability of the so-called Kramers-Kronig integral relationships is the same in the acoustic case as it is in the electric case. Intellectually there is so much in common. Also some practical aspects are identical. Typically the physics of diffraction of acoustic waves in front of an acoustic transducer, and that in front of a radar dish, is identical. And so there are many others. </p>
+
Many basics are similar. The total intellectual approach is to sort of take tissue apart and measure what components contribute to the processes and properties. In the acoustic case, we tried to characterize the frequency dependence by dispersive effects, as we called them. Again, the rationale we used was almost identical. The relevant mathematics and the applicability of the so-called Kramers-Kronig integral relationships is the same in the acoustic case as it is in the electric case. Intellectually there is so much in common. Also some practical aspects are identical. Typically the physics of diffraction of acoustic waves in front of an acoustic transducer, and that in front of a radar dish, is identical. And so there are many others.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I see. What about the applications in diathermy? </p>
+
I see. What about the applications in diathermy?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Again, I would characterize the mode of propagation as similar. The focusing of waves into hot spots and all that is pretty similar. Our first papers with Ed Carstensen on the application of diathermy of electric acoustics tied the two approaches together. That was our common paper which won a prize, "The application of electric acoustic impedance measuring techniques to problems in diathermy." It was published by the AIEE in 'fifty-three. We carried that theme out through our work. So there's much in common within bio-acoustics and electricity. </p>
+
Again, I would characterize the mode of propagation as similar. The focusing of waves into hot spots and all that is pretty similar. Our first papers with Ed Carstensen on the application of diathermy of electric acoustics tied the two approaches together. That was our common paper which won a prize, "The application of electric acoustic impedance measuring techniques to problems in diathermy." It was published by the AIEE in 'fifty-three. We carried that theme out through our work. So there's much in common within bio-acoustics and electricity.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>It's not transfer of technology but transfer of experimental approach? </p>
+
It's not transfer of technology but transfer of experimental approach?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. And intellectual approach. </p>
+
Yes. And intellectual approach.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Even some of the mathematical analysis is the same. </p>
+
Yes. Even some of the mathematical analysis is the same.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. There are common relationships, diffraction, the relaxation mathematics, and things like that; these were basically identical even though numerical results are quite different. </p>
+
Yes. There are common relationships, diffraction, the relaxation mathematics, and things like that; these were basically identical even though numerical results are quite different.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What about the modeling of biological materials with layers or spheres or whatever? Was there some carry-over there as well? </p>
+
What about the modeling of biological materials with layers or spheres or whatever? Was there some carry-over there as well?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. But with entirely different results. In the electric case, the analysis proved that cell membranes played a very important part, a dominant part, with the electric characteristics. In our work on acoustics, it turned out, to our surprise, that membranes have very little importance. But proteins and macromolecules are responsible for the dominant part of the ultrasonic absorption processes. So the entire response was very different. </p>
+
Yes. But with entirely different results. In the electric case, the analysis proved that cell membranes played a very important part, a dominant part, with the electric characteristics. In our work on acoustics, it turned out, to our surprise, that membranes have very little importance. But proteins and macromolecules are responsible for the dominant part of the ultrasonic absorption processes. So the entire response was very different.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Well, that's very interesting. Is there anything more you'd like to comment on now on that, the line of acoustic or ultrasonic research? </p>
+
Well, that's very interesting. Is there anything more you'd like to comment on now on that, the line of acoustic or ultrasonic research?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I think I have said most of the stuff which needs to be said at the moment about acoustic properties. Oh, pardon me! I forgot something very important. It's good that you asked me that. There was another person, who did acoustics work in my lab between Edmonds and Pauly, I think I mentioned him already to you. His name is Jack Reid, and is now at Drexel. He was the man who introduced echocardiography in the US. That was a very practical thing, of course. That was a very important development. </p>
+
I think I have said most of the stuff which needs to be said at the moment about acoustic properties. Oh, pardon me! I forgot something very important. It's good that you asked me that. There was another person, who did acoustics work in my lab between Edmonds and Pauly, I think I mentioned him already to you. His name is Jack Reid, and is now at Drexel. He was the man who introduced echocardiography in the US. That was a very practical thing, of course. That was a very important development.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
+
'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>What part of your lab was involved in the development of echocardiography? </p>
+
What part of your lab was involved in the development of echocardiography?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
+
'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>I thought I mentioned that before. Well, let me briefly summarize. Scientists in Germany and Sweden made the first successful attempts to monitor the motion of the heart by ultrasonic means. When I came back to the United States, I brought it right away to the attention of my cardiologist friend, Francis Kay. At the same time, John Reid applied for a position in my laboratory with the intention to get a Ph.D. in bioengineering. He was joined by Claude Joyner who did clinical work in cardiology. Jack Reid did instrumentation work and realized the echocardiography. Joyner was financed by Kay, and I was able to finance [[Oral-History:John M. Reid|Jack Reid]]. I sent an application — probably the first application about echocardiography that was sent to NIH. It was approved, and that gave me the ability to support his Ph.D. thesis work. I supervised it of course. I was very much interested in it, but it was entirely Jack's work. Echocardiography has become very important in this country. There's no Department of Medicine without echocardiography equipment. As a matter of fact, echocardiography proved to detect heart defects which were unknown before. It revealed problems such as the inversion of mitral valves, which is called a prolapsed valve condition. It is a special condition, very frequent. My wife has it, too. That can't be seen with other techniques. It was beautifully recognized with echocardiography. </p>
+
I thought I mentioned that before. Well, let me briefly summarize. Scientists in Germany and Sweden made the first successful attempts to monitor the motion of the heart by ultrasonic means. When I came back to the United States, I brought it right away to the attention of my cardiologist friend, Francis Kay. At the same time, John Reid applied for a position in my laboratory with the intention to get a Ph.D. in bioengineering. He was joined by Claude Joyner who did clinical work in cardiology. Jack Reid did instrumentation work and realized the echocardiography. Joyner was financed by Kay, and I was able to finance [[Oral-History:John M. Reid|Jack Reid]]. I sent an application — probably the first application about echocardiography that was sent to NIH. It was approved, and that gave me the ability to support his Ph.D. thesis work. I supervised it of course. I was very much interested in it, but it was entirely Jack's work. Echocardiography has become very important in this country. There's no Department of Medicine without echocardiography equipment. As a matter of fact, echocardiography proved to detect heart defects which were unknown before. It revealed problems such as the inversion of mitral valves, which is called a prolapsed valve condition. It is a special condition, very frequent. My wife has it, too. That can't be seen with other techniques. It was beautifully recognized with echocardiography.  
  
<p>Yes, so we had a number of good people in acoustics. All very well-known in the field, starting with Ed Carstensen, followed by Pauly, Jack Reid and Peter Edmonds. Very excellent. I was very happy to have been able to develop this whole effort in acoustics and to be associated with these friends and coworkers. </p>
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Yes, so we had a number of good people in acoustics. All very well-known in the field, starting with Ed Carstensen, followed by Pauly, Jack Reid and Peter Edmonds. Very excellent. I was very happy to have been able to develop this whole effort in acoustics and to be associated with these friends and coworkers.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
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'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>The acoustic work was always separately funded? </p>
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The acoustic work was always separately funded?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>It was separately funded. I think I mentioned to you that I got the work with Carstensen funded by the Air Force. Later on it was funded by NIH. Edmonds got support from NSF on his own. </p>
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It was separately funded. I think I mentioned to you that I got the work with Carstensen funded by the Air Force. Later on it was funded by NIH. Edmonds got support from NSF on his own.  
  
 
=== Electrical Properties of Biological Materials  ===
 
=== Electrical Properties of Biological Materials  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
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'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>Let's turn now to your main line of research, the electrical properties of biological materials. Was it your view that those fundamental properties of the materials should be precisely measured over a wide range of frequencies, because one could then calculate other properties of the materials, such as how much energy is absorbed or reflected? </p>
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Let's turn now to your main line of research, the electrical properties of biological materials. Was it your view that those fundamental properties of the materials should be precisely measured over a wide range of frequencies, because one could then calculate other properties of the materials, such as how much energy is absorbed or reflected?  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Originally, at the very early conception of the program, a purely scientific spirit prevailed. Namely, I wanted to look at biological materials as a physicist. Normally a physicist becomes interested in some material, he measures its properties without any question about how he can apply it. As he measures the properties, he asks himself Why are the properties as observed? To this he can then add another thing. Namely, he can add the question. Now knowing why the properties are such as observed, how do energies interact with the material? If he knows why the properties are such as observed, he can explain how energies interact. Out of this comes, then, intelligently undertaken applications. Not, therefore, just going blindly at something — at cancer or so; but intelligent applications. Those applications that we envisioned early pertained to cardiology and physical medicine primarily. The engineering part to all such applications requires precise measurements of electrical properties and acoustic properties and play an important part in developing various diagnostic techniques in all sorts of areas. </p>
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Originally, at the very early conception of the program, a purely scientific spirit prevailed. Namely, I wanted to look at biological materials as a physicist. Normally a physicist becomes interested in some material, he measures its properties without any question about how he can apply it. As he measures the properties, he asks himself Why are the properties as observed? To this he can then add another thing. Namely, he can add the question. Now knowing why the properties are such as observed, how do energies interact with the material? If he knows why the properties are such as observed, he can explain how energies interact. Out of this comes, then, intelligently undertaken applications. Not, therefore, just going blindly at something — at cancer or so; but intelligent applications. Those applications that we envisioned early pertained to cardiology and physical medicine primarily. The engineering part to all such applications requires precise measurements of electrical properties and acoustic properties and play an important part in developing various diagnostic techniques in all sorts of areas.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
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'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<P><flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 4.mp3</flashmp3></p>
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<flashmp3>140 - schwan - clip 4.mp3</flashmp3>
  
<p>I'm wondering why you chose to focus on these two fundamental properties — electrical and acoustical properties — of the materials. There must be other properties one could investigate. </p>
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I'm wondering why you chose to focus on these two fundamental properties — electrical and acoustical properties — of the materials. There must be other properties one could investigate.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. Two reasons. Some work had been already done in acoustics. The electric part had been only partially employed. The electric part had been only explored by Cole and Fricke in the radio frequency part, but they couldn't do it at high and low frequencies. I developed the instrumentation to do so, and after the Second World War it was possible to do this. I significantly extended the range of observations into areas where no one else had done work. A good amount of work was going on in optics already. I didn't apply myself to that work. I decided I would have been spreading myself too thin by also entering a well-developed field. So I chose a different area. And last, but not least, my background from the Frankfurt Institute, led me in that direction. </p>
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Yes. Two reasons. Some work had been already done in acoustics. The electric part had been only partially employed. The electric part had been only explored by Cole and Fricke in the radio frequency part, but they couldn't do it at high and low frequencies. I developed the instrumentation to do so, and after the Second World War it was possible to do this. I significantly extended the range of observations into areas where no one else had done work. A good amount of work was going on in optics already. I didn't apply myself to that work. I decided I would have been spreading myself too thin by also entering a well-developed field. So I chose a different area. And last, but not least, my background from the Frankfurt Institute, led me in that direction.  
  
<p>I'll just point out two examples. If you know electrical properties of materials, then, say, if you have a beam of radiation hitting a body of material, the electrical properties of the material and the shape of the body determine the mode of propagation of that beam. In other words, to what extent it's scattered or focused and where the focal point is. All those things you can calculate. You can do that by Mie Theory — M-I-E. A mathematician named Mie had developed the mathematical techniques of how to predict what happens with any form of radiation — optical, sonic, or electromagnetic propagates. He showed mathematically how it gets focused or how it gets dispersed in the medium. His technique was further advanced and found a place in leading textbooks. Stratton, still a leading textbook in this country, has a chapter about Mie Theory. The intellectual tool is there which enables us to predict how the radiation penetrates in the tissues, and how deep. You can determine precisely where it goes, in principle. But if you have a difficult body surface with curvatures, and with all sorts of bones and different materials, there is too much complexity to permit numerical solutions. </p>
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I'll just point out two examples. If you know electrical properties of materials, then, say, if you have a beam of radiation hitting a body of material, the electrical properties of the material and the shape of the body determine the mode of propagation of that beam. In other words, to what extent it's scattered or focused and where the focal point is. All those things you can calculate. You can do that by Mie Theory — M-I-E. A mathematician named Mie had developed the mathematical techniques of how to predict what happens with any form of radiation — optical, sonic, or electromagnetic propagates. He showed mathematically how it gets focused or how it gets dispersed in the medium. His technique was further advanced and found a place in leading textbooks. Stratton, still a leading textbook in this country, has a chapter about Mie Theory. The intellectual tool is there which enables us to predict how the radiation penetrates in the tissues, and how deep. You can determine precisely where it goes, in principle. But if you have a difficult body surface with curvatures, and with all sorts of bones and different materials, there is too much complexity to permit numerical solutions.  
  
<p>But Mie's is theory fundamentally macroscopic. With a microscopic approach we blow up the tissue. We look at how it's composed of individual cells, which are all divided by membranes. Inside is something conducting outside is something conducting. Now if you know the field at a particular location, as predicted by your macroscopic consideration, then your knowledge about these mechanisms can tell you how strong the field strength is in the membrane, how strong inside, how strong outside, at any particular frequency. Consequently, you can predict how it interacts with the membrane, how it interacts with proteins, the nucleus, nucleic acids, and so on. So the knowledge it gives you is microscopic and pertains to real mechanisms inside. Mie Theory applies macroscopically. Both approaches are necessary. The macroscopic may be called the bioengineering approach. The biophysics approach explores the details on the microscopic level. So you see, all that we do is directly relevant. Electric properties get at the principal mechanisms and on a larger scale they give you the macroscopic dosimetry. We were the first to use both processes then many others adopted the practice. Originally we were practically alone, but we were then joined by many others of course. </p>
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But Mie's is theory fundamentally macroscopic. With a microscopic approach we blow up the tissue. We look at how it's composed of individual cells, which are all divided by membranes. Inside is something conducting outside is something conducting. Now if you know the field at a particular location, as predicted by your macroscopic consideration, then your knowledge about these mechanisms can tell you how strong the field strength is in the membrane, how strong inside, how strong outside, at any particular frequency. Consequently, you can predict how it interacts with the membrane, how it interacts with proteins, the nucleus, nucleic acids, and so on. So the knowledge it gives you is microscopic and pertains to real mechanisms inside. Mie Theory applies macroscopically. Both approaches are necessary. The macroscopic may be called the bioengineering approach. The biophysics approach explores the details on the microscopic level. So you see, all that we do is directly relevant. Electric properties get at the principal mechanisms and on a larger scale they give you the macroscopic dosimetry. We were the first to use both processes then many others adopted the practice. Originally we were practically alone, but we were then joined by many others of course.  
  
 
=== Computation and Resonance Effect  ===
 
=== Computation and Resonance Effect  ===
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
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'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>You mentioned here the difficulty of carrying out the computations sometimes. </p>
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You mentioned here the difficulty of carrying out the computations sometimes.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>Yes. </p>
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Yes.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
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'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>I noticed in your list of lectures that in 1961 you gave a talk on UNIVAC computations of radar absorption. I'm wondering about your use of computers, how you happened to have the use of a UNIVAC. </p>
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I noticed in your list of lectures that in 1961 you gave a talk on UNIVAC computations of radar absorption. I'm wondering about your use of computers, how you happened to have the use of a UNIVAC.  
  
<p>'''Schwan:''' </p>
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'''Schwan:'''  
  
<p>We got fairly early involved with computer technology in our laboratory. First we rented computers. But eventually we purchased our own computer. </p>
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We got fairly early involved with computer technology in our laboratory. First we rented computers. But eventually we purchased our own computer.  
  
<p>'''Nebeker:''' </p>
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'''Nebeker:'''  
  
<p>For your laboratory? </p>
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For your laboratory?  
  
<p>Schwan: for the laboratory, yes. I got an NIH grant to purchase equipment from Digital Corporation. </p>
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Schwan: for the laboratory, yes. I got an NIH grant to purcha