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Oral-History:Gordon K. Teal

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== About Gordon K. Teal ==
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== About Gordon K. Teal ==
  
Gordon K. Teal was the recipient of the IEEE Medal of Honor and member of the National Academy of Engineering. Gordon Teal's contribution to solid state electronics, the monocrystals of germanium and silicon that opened up the field to practical use and commercial viability, guarantees him a high place in the history of technology. In the interview, he recounts his career from Bell Labs to Texas Instrument and beyond. His story is interesting also for what it shows about science and engineering.
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<p>[[Gordon Teal|Gordon K. Teal]] was the recipient of the IEEE Medal of Honor and member of the National Academy of Engineering. [[Archives:Finding the Right Material: Gordon Teal as Inventor and Manager|Gordon Teal's contribution to solid state electronics]], the monocrystals of [[Archives:From Germanium to Silicon, A History of Change in the Technology of the Semiconductors|germanium and silicon]] that opened up the field to practical use and commercial viability, guarantees him a high place in the history of technology. In the interview, he recounts his career from [[Bell Labs|Bell Labs]] to Texas Instrument and beyond. His story is interesting also for what it shows about science and engineering. </p>
  
For more information, see Gordon K. Teal’s [http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Gordon_Teal biography].
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== About the Interview  ==
  
== <br>About the Interview ==
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<p>GORDON K. TEAL: An Interview Conducted by Andrew Goldstein, IEEE History Center, 17-20 December 1991 </p>
  
GORDON K. TEAL: An Interview Conducted by Andrew Goldstein, IEEE History Center, 17-20 December 1991
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<p>Interview # 136 for the IEEE History Center The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. </p>
  
Interview # 136 for the IEEE History Center The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, Inc. and Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
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== Copyright Statement  ==
  
== <br>Copyright Statement ==
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<p>This manuscript is being made available for research purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the IEEE History Center. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of IEEE History Center. </p>
  
This manuscript is being made available for research purposes only. All literary rights in the manuscript, including the right to publish, are reserved to the IEEE History Center. No part of the manuscript may be quoted for publication without the written permission of the Director of IEEE History Center.
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<p>Request for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the IEEE History Center Oral History Program, 39 Union Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8538 USA. It should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user. </p>
  
Request for permission to quote for publication should be addressed to the IEEE History Center Oral History Program, Rutgers - the State University, 39 Union Street, New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8538 USA. It should include identification of the specific passages to be quoted, anticipated use of the passages, and identification of the user.
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<p>It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows: </p>
  
It is recommended that this oral history be cited as follows:
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<p>Gordon K. Teal, an oral history conducted in 1991 by Andrew Goldstein, IEEE History Center, New Brunswick, NJ, USA. </p>
  
Gordon K. Teal, an oral history conducted in 1991 by Andrew Goldstein, IEEE History Center, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ, USA.
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== Interview  ==
  
== <br>Interview ==
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<p>Interview: Gordon K. Teal </p>
  
Interview: Gordon K. Teal<br>Interviewer: Andrew Goldstein<br>Date: 17-20 December 1991<br>Place: Dallas, Texas, USA
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<p>Interviewer: Andrew Goldstein </p>
  
=== Family and Childhood ===
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<p>Date: 17-20 December 1991 </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>Place: Dallas, Texas, USA </p>
  
Can you tell me the day you were born and some of the details of your family?
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=== Family and Childhood  ===
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I was born in a house over in South Dallas. At that time, it was a very nice area for people to live. We lived on a street that was called South Boulevard. In more recent years, it has been going more and more towards being a section of Dallas that has acquired probably the largest number of Negroes.
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<p>Can you tell me the day you were born and some of the details of your family? </p>
  
My father was from Georgia, and he came to Texas to go into business with an uncle of his, Mr. Duke. His uncle started a nickel store, so he and his brother, who also was from Georgia, built up this nickel-store. This in about 1897, prior to that my father had gone to college in Georgia.
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I was born in a house over in South Dallas. At that time, it was a very nice area for people to live. We lived on a street that was called South Boulevard. In more recent years, it has been going more and more towards being a section of Dallas that has acquired probably the largest number of Negroes. </p>
  
To study what subject?
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<p>My father was from Georgia, and he came to Texas to go into business with an uncle of his, Mr. Duke. His uncle started a nickel store, so he and his brother, who also was from Georgia, built up this nickel-store. This in about 1897, prior to that my father had gone to college in Georgia. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
He studied Latin and mathematics. My recollection is that he also studied French. He had studied very broadly, too. He was raised on a farm about 50 miles west of Atlanta. There were seven children in this family, and he was born in a log cabin. The mother taught the kids about through high school.
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<p>To study what subject? </p>
  
My father told his parents that he wanted to go to college, and they said they would help him. But of course, they did not have a lot of money. He made unusually high grades, and he got his college degree by working mostly as a substitute teacher.
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>He studied Latin and mathematics. My recollection is that he also studied French. He had studied very broadly, too. He was raised on a farm about 50 miles west of Atlanta. There were seven children in this family, and he was born in a log cabin. The mother taught the kids about through high school. </p>
  
In the local schools?
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<p>My father told his parents that he wanted to go to college, and they said they would help him. But of course, they did not have a lot of money. He made unusually high grades, and he got his college degree by working mostly as a substitute teacher. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
No, in the college. He got his degree in slightly over two years.
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<p>In the local schools? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
What University was this?
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<p>No, in the college. He got his degree in slightly over two years. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I do not remember right off hand, but it was a fairly well known college. His average was about 96 and that was even though he was taking some hard subjects.
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<p>What University was this? </p>
  
When they came here, why, they built up this business. It was Duke and Teal. Mr. Duke was the uncle. They built the business up until they had a place in many of the towns of Texas. And then would go out to different towns and run the store in this town and that town. Some of the names I have really forgotten, but they had a small store in Waxahachie, Texas, which is about 50 miles away. My father ran that store, and that is where he met my mother. Then he came to Dallas and set up some stores here; my uncle set up some in other towns. They even had one of their sister’s work in one of them for a while.
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
My mother and father terrifically influenced my education. Both of them were very smart, but my mother did not have a college education. She was about 18 when she married. My father was about nine years older than she was.  
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<p>I do not remember right off hand, but it was a fairly well known college. His average was about 96 and that was even though he was taking some hard subjects. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>When they came here, why, they built up this business. It was Duke and Teal. Mr. Duke was the uncle. They built the business up until they had a place in many of the towns of Texas. And then would go out to different towns and run the store in this town and that town. Some of the names I have really forgotten, but they had a small store in Waxahachie, Texas, which is about 50 miles away. My father ran that store, and that is where he met my mother. Then he came to Dallas and set up some stores here; my uncle set up some in other towns. They even had one of their sister’s work in one of them for a while. </p>
  
Was he scientifically oriented?
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<p>My mother and father terrifically influenced my education. Both of them were very smart, but my mother did not have a college education. She was about 18 when she married. My father was about nine years older than she was. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Not particularly. But his grades were very high, and my mother encouraged me to make that grade, too.
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<p>Was he scientifically oriented? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Do you remember that from when you were very young or later in life?
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<p>Not particularly. But his grades were very high, and my mother encouraged me to make that grade, too. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Later, when I was in high school. Around the age of 14 or 15, she gave me the idea that I could be the best and get the best grades in the class if I wanted to.
+
<p>Do you remember that from when you were very young or later in life? </p>
  
As far as why did I go into science? I was just curious about why things worked and why they did not work. I was curious enough to really want to learn how things worked.
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Later, when I was in high school. Around the age of 14 or 15, she gave me the idea that I could be the best and get the best grades in the class if I wanted to. </p>
  
It sounds like you came from a very supportive environment.
+
<p>As far as why did I go into science? I was just curious about why things worked and why they did not work. I was curious enough to really want to learn how things worked. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Very!
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<p>It sounds like you came from a very supportive environment. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was there intellectual activity. Did you have discussions about why things worked or the way the world was, for instance, what causes the seasons or the phases of the moon, things of this sort?
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<p>Very! </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I do not remember that.
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<p>Was there intellectual activity. Did you have discussions about why things worked or the way the world was, for instance, what causes the seasons or the phases of the moon, things of this sort? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you have brothers and sisters?
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<p>I do not remember that. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I had a sister who was about three years older than I am, and a brother who is six years younger than I am. He, incidentally, went into science and engineering also. I encouraged him to come up to Brown University, which is where I got my Ph.D. He came up to New York while we were living and I got him to go to Brown University for a year. But he decided that he wanted to try some other things. Therefore, he went out to Michigan and got a master's degree in some field that had to do with science, but more on the engineering side.
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<p>Did you have brothers and sisters? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was your family unusual in your South Dallas community? You said that your father had a college degree. Was that typical of the other families?
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<p>I had a sister who was about three years older than I am, and a brother who is six years younger than I am. He, incidentally, went into science and engineering also. I encouraged him to come up to Brown University, which is where I got my Ph.D. He came up to New York while we were living and I got him to go to Brown University for a year. But he decided that he wanted to try some other things. Therefore, he went out to Michigan and got a master's degree in some field that had to do with science, but more on the engineering side. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I do not really know. I think he probably was better educated than most of the people that he saw.
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<p>Was your family unusual in your South Dallas community? You said that your father had a college degree. Was that typical of the other families? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You say that the area has changed over the years. Was it rural then, more suburban, or even city-like?
+
<p>I do not really know. I think he probably was better educated than most of the people that he saw. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It was a much smaller place, and my father decided to get out of the five-and-dime store business around 1910. He became attracted to the real estate business. So, he worked in the real estate business for the rest of his life.
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<p>You say that the area has changed over the years. Was it rural then, more suburban, or even city-like? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was your family comfortable in terms of wealth?
+
<p>It was a much smaller place, and my father decided to get out of the five-and-dime store business around 1910. He became attracted to the real estate business. So, he worked in the real estate business for the rest of his life. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
He did very well in the real estate business for many years, but then the Depression came along, and that really put a crimp in their good fortune. My mother had to get a job there for a while.
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<p>Was your family comfortable in terms of wealth? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
During the ‘30s?
+
<p>He did very well in the real estate business for many years, but then the Depression came along, and that really put a crimp in their good fortune. My mother had to get a job there for a while. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. I think she held this job for about eight or ten years. She ran a place for families who were having trouble providing for their children. It was a city-run home for the unfortunate. My mother was head of it, and my father was without a job at that time for a number of years. He really played a very important role in the home for children even though he was unemployed.
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<p>During the ‘30s? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Were you religious, and what denomination?
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<p>Yes. I think she held this job for about eight or ten years. She ran a place for families who were having trouble providing for their children. It was a city-run home for the unfortunate. My mother was head of it, and my father was without a job at that time for a number of years. He really played a very important role in the home for children even though he was unemployed. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
We were Baptist. My father and mother were very much into the church. My father became a deacon at a very early stage of the biggest Baptist church in Dallas, the First Baptist Church. He became a deacon in 1905, and he was still the deacon in the 'sixties.
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<p>Were you religious, and what denomination? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
It was important to the whole family — you also?
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<p>We were Baptist. My father and mother were very much into the church. My father became a deacon at a very early stage of the biggest Baptist church in Dallas, the First Baptist Church. He became a deacon in 1905, and he was still the deacon in the 'sixties. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
The whole family.
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<p>It was important to the whole family — you also? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You have that devout faith today?
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<p>The whole family. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
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<p>You have that devout faith today? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did the church define the community or did you have play friends who lived near you or friends from school?
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<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
We lived a good distance from the church because my father needed to be close to where he was selling and building houses. I had a cousin whom he attracted into the company that he was in, who did a very good job of building houses.
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<p>Did the church define the community or did you have play friends who lived near you or friends from school? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
He was the actual contractor, your cousin?
+
<p>We lived a good distance from the church because my father needed to be close to where he was selling and building houses. I had a cousin whom he attracted into the company that he was in, who did a very good job of building houses. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, he knew how to build. He just got well acquainted and did a good job of that kind. He just recently died.
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<p>He was the actual contractor, your cousin? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you go to public schools in Dallas?
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<p>Yes, he knew how to build. He just got well acquainted and did a good job of that kind. He just recently died. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
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<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
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<p>Did you go to public schools in Dallas? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Were you and exceptional student before your mother’s encouragement?
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<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It was my mother who encouraged me in the idea that I could be the best.
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<p>Were you and exceptional student before your mother’s encouragement? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
What was the first thing in your secondary school education that stands out in your mind as being special?
+
<p>It was my mother who encouraged me in the idea that I could be the best. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
What do you mean by "special"?
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<p>What was the first thing in your secondary school education that stands out in your mind as being special? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
I mean, if you had in high school a course that you recall as being particularly interesting or challenging or some teacher who was?
+
<p>What do you mean by "special"? </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I can remember Miss DeCampry was probably one of the best teachers that I had, and she was an English teacher. I felt I really learned an awful lot in her class, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
+
<p>I mean, if you had in high school a course that you recall as being particularly interesting or challenging or some teacher who was? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Now that is English. Was the curriculum balanced between humanities and sciences? Was there any instruction in art or music or in other fine arts?
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<p>I can remember Miss DeCampry was probably one of the best teachers that I had, and she was an English teacher. I felt I really learned an awful lot in her class, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I did not go into the fine arts until I was through with college and lived in places like New York where they had outstanding museums. And also, we had had certain friends that my wife and I associated with who were artistically inclined.
+
<p>Now that is English. Was the curriculum balanced between humanities and sciences? Was there any instruction in art or music or in other fine arts? </p>
  
One in particular that I was thinking about was from Baylor University. She and her husband both were from Texas. She painted, and she kept going to museums in New York. Alice Gray was talented. We have a painting right behind that door in the kitchen that she painted.
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<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
=== World War One ===
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<p>I did not go into the fine arts until I was through with college and lived in places like New York where they had outstanding museums. And also, we had had certain friends that my wife and I associated with who were artistically inclined. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>One in particular that I was thinking about was from Baylor University. She and her husband both were from Texas. She painted, and she kept going to museums in New York. Alice Gray was talented. We have a painting right behind that door in the kitchen that she painted. </p>
  
How did World War I affect your family? Do you remember?
+
=== World War One  ===
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I had an uncle who was in World War I that had quite a dreadful time.
+
<p>How did World War I affect your family? Do you remember? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You would have been ten at the time, correct?
+
<p>I had an uncle who was in World War I that had quite a dreadful time. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I do not remember too much about World War I. But I was about 30 years old when the World War II came along. And we were living in New York City. It was pretty horrible.
+
<p>You would have been ten at the time, correct? </p>
  
=== Baylor University ===
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I do not remember too much about World War I. But I was about 30 years old when the World War II came along. And we were living in New York City. It was pretty horrible. </p>
  
You graduated high school, I guess, sometime in the mid-'twenties, maybe 1924 or '25, and elected to go to Baylor.
+
=== Baylor University  ===
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>You graduated high school, I guess, sometime in the mid-'twenties, maybe 1924 or '25, and elected to go to Baylor. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Why Baylor?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Because it was a Baptist school and a very outstanding one. I actually planned to go to M.I.T. in Boston because it caught my attention but my mother wanted me to be closer to home, and also she wanted me to go to a Baptist school. Therefore, I agreed to go to Baylor for a year, which I did. And after a year, I liked it so much I stayed. Also, I met my wife in that time.
+
<p>Why Baylor? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
She was at Baylor?
+
<p>Because it was a Baptist school and a very outstanding one. I actually planned to go to M.I.T. in Boston because it caught my attention but my mother wanted me to be closer to home, and also she wanted me to go to a Baptist school. Therefore, I agreed to go to Baylor for a year, which I did. And after a year, I liked it so much I stayed. Also, I met my wife in that time. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
She did not become my wife until later, after I had gotten my Ph.D. at Brown.
+
<p>She was at Baylor? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
But she was another student at Baylor?
+
<p>She did not become my wife until later, after I had gotten my Ph.D. at Brown. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. She was a very outstanding student. She attracted quite a lot of attention as a student.
+
<p>But she was another student at Baylor? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
I will come back to that, but I am curious still about the compromise that you and your mother reached about college. Was that a difficult compromise or fairly peaceful? Was there any bitterness or resentment when you agreed to spend a year at Baylor?
+
<p>Yes. She was a very outstanding student. She attracted quite a lot of attention as a student. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes and no.
+
<p>I will come back to that, but I am curious still about the compromise that you and your mother reached about college. Was that a difficult compromise or fairly peaceful? Was there any bitterness or resentment when you agreed to spend a year at Baylor? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
No?
+
<p>Yes and no. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I mean, I thought it would be interesting to see what it was like at MIT.
+
<p>No? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you have any apprehension about going as far away as Boston? Or did that seem exciting to you?
+
<p>I mean, I thought it would be interesting to see what it was like at MIT. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I thought it was exciting. But it was also pretty far away and was fairly expensive in contrast to the amount that it would cost to go to a closer school.
+
<p>Did you have any apprehension about going as far away as Boston? Or did that seem exciting to you? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you come back home frequently while you were there that first year?
+
<p>I thought it was exciting. But it was also pretty far away and was fairly expensive in contrast to the amount that it would cost to go to a closer school. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>Did you come back home frequently while you were there that first year? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
When you entered Baylor did you know what you were going to major in?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, I guess I wanted to study mathematics. I got interested in studying chemistry, and I liked both of them. I found that they were interesting, and I usually made good grades.
+
<p>When you entered Baylor did you know what you were going to major in? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was there a fairly standard curriculum? I mean, you were interested in math, but then did you also have to take chemistry and physics and perhaps engineering?
+
<p>Yes, I guess I wanted to study mathematics. I got interested in studying chemistry, and I liked both of them. I found that they were interesting, and I usually made good grades. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I did not really take physics; it was just a matter that you cannot like everything. So, you have to concentrate on one. I concentrated on chemistry and mathematics.
+
<p>Was there a fairly standard curriculum? I mean, you were interested in math, but then did you also have to take chemistry and physics and perhaps engineering? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You took no courses in engineering or electricity then?
+
<p>I did not really take physics; it was just a matter that you cannot like everything. So, you have to concentrate on one. I concentrated on chemistry and mathematics. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
They did not have engineering at Baylor at that time. They have some engineering now.
+
<p>You took no courses in engineering or electricity then? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
What was your living arrangement when you were there?
+
<p>They did not have engineering at Baylor at that time. They have some engineering now. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I lived in the dormitory.
+
<p>What was your living arrangement when you were there? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was that enjoyable?
+
<p>I lived in the dormitory. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, I enjoyed it. It was interesting to me.
+
<p>Was that enjoyable? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Were there many options to live, perhaps, in a fraternity house or off-campus? Did most of the students live in the dorms?
+
<p>Yes, I enjoyed it. It was interesting to me. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, but a lot of their students were from nearby towns and Waco.
+
<p>Were there many options to live, perhaps, in a fraternity house or off-campus? Did most of the students live in the dorms? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
I noticed in the biographical notes that you ran on the track team. Was that your principal extracurricular activity?
+
<p>Yes, but a lot of their students were from nearby towns and Waco. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, I enjoyed track very much.
+
<p>I noticed in the biographical notes that you ran on the track team. Was that your principal extracurricular activity? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
It was also interesting to me to see that you were on the Chamber of Commerce.
+
<p>Yes, I enjoyed track very much. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I got a big kick out of belonging to the Chamber of Commerce there in the school.
+
<p>It was also interesting to me to see that you were on the Chamber of Commerce. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
What would the Chamber of Commerce do, and what was your position there?
+
<p>I got a big kick out of belonging to the Chamber of Commerce there in the school. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
At the time I got to know people and hear about some of their interests. We had people with a variety of interests and backgrounds, and it helped me to just enjoy life more. It also gave me a different perspective on life. And we frequently had projects that we thought would be good for Baylor and good for the students.
+
<p>What would the Chamber of Commerce do, and what was your position there? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Your degree was in math, is that right? Math and chemistry?
+
<p>At the time I got to know people and hear about some of their interests. We had people with a variety of interests and backgrounds, and it helped me to just enjoy life more. It also gave me a different perspective on life. And we frequently had projects that we thought would be good for Baylor and good for the students. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>Your degree was in math, is that right? Math and chemistry? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Were these two separate degrees that you double-majored in?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It was a double major.
+
<p>Were these two separate degrees that you double-majored in? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you have a clear preference for one or the other?
+
<p>It was a double major. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I liked both of them. And I liked the teachers that I had. I felt I was really learning something that was worthwhile and that was interesting. I felt that I probably would need it later to have trained in that way. When I actually got into work after graduating from college, I felt it had been very worthwhile.
+
<p>Did you have a clear preference for one or the other? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
When you were an undergraduate, did you know that you would go on to pursue graduate studies? Had you been planning for that the whole time?
+
<p>I liked both of them. And I liked the teachers that I had. I felt I was really learning something that was worthwhile and that was interesting. I felt that I probably would need it later to have trained in that way. When I actually got into work after graduating from college, I felt it had been very worthwhile. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I am not sure just exactly when I started planning in order to get into something that I could make a living at and which seemed really worthwhile.
+
<p>When you were an undergraduate, did you know that you would go on to pursue graduate studies? Had you been planning for that the whole time? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
That is interesting because I do not think of mathematics as a particularly lucrative field. Was it different? Did you have an idea how you could make a living at it?
+
<p>I am not sure just exactly when I started planning in order to get into something that I could make a living at and which seemed really worthwhile. </p>
  
=== Brown University and Germanium ===
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>That is interesting because I do not think of mathematics as a particularly lucrative field. Was it different? Did you have an idea how you could make a living at it? </p>
  
You needed mathematics in a good many types of work if you went on to things that would be of interest to, say like MIT. So guess I did plan to go to MIT when I finished undergraduate training.
+
=== Brown University and Germanium  ===
  
As it turned out, when I graduated I had a professor who wanted me to go to Brown University. Brown gave me a scholarship. I mean, each year Brown gave a scholarship to a student from Baylor, the University of Texas, and I think Simmons University in West Texas. This was done to attract Texas students.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You needed mathematics in a good many types of work if you went on to things that would be of interest to, say like MIT. So guess I did plan to go to MIT when I finished undergraduate training. </p>
  
Did you have to apply? Which scholarship is this? Does it have a name? Is it a named scholarship?
+
<p>As it turned out, when I graduated I had a professor who wanted me to go to Brown University. Brown gave me a scholarship. I mean, each year Brown gave a scholarship to a student from Baylor, the University of Texas, and I think Simmons University in West Texas. This was done to attract Texas students. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. I think it was a Marston Scholarship.
+
<p>Did you have to apply? Which scholarship is this? Does it have a name? Is it a named scholarship? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was the competition fairly keen?
+
<p>Yes. I think it was a Marston Scholarship. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Apparently my grades were sufficiently good that when they heard about my grades they awarded me the scholarship.
+
<p>Was the competition fairly keen? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Now the professor who wanted you to go to Brown, did he know the faculty and the program there, and he thought it was well suited for your interests?
+
<p>Apparently my grades were sufficiently good that when they heard about my grades they awarded me the scholarship. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>Now the professor who wanted you to go to Brown, did he know the faculty and the program there, and he thought it was well suited for your interests? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Now can you recall what laboratory work you had done at college? How sophisticated was it?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
At the time I went into it, it was certainly something that required a certain amount of effort on my part. I was fortunate to receive a scholarship simply because we did not have much money for further education. And with three children in the family and each one of them expected to go somewhere for additional study it was good to be able to pay part of your way at least. And it gave you an opportunity to get acquainted with people, too.
+
<p>Now can you recall what laboratory work you had done at college? How sophisticated was it? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Can you tell me what year that was when you first came to Brown?
+
<p>At the time I went into it, it was certainly something that required a certain amount of effort on my part. I was fortunate to receive a scholarship simply because we did not have much money for further education. And with three children in the family and each one of them expected to go somewhere for additional study it was good to be able to pay part of your way at least. And it gave you an opportunity to get acquainted with people, too. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It was the fall of 1927.
+
<p>Can you tell me what year that was when you first came to Brown? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
While you were there, I know that you worked with Professor Krause.  
+
<p>It was the fall of 1927. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. In view of the fact that I had already studied chemistry and wanted to study it some more, he was the natural choice. He was the head of the Chemical Department at that time and was for many years afterwards. He died in 1967. I think he was about 90 years old.  
+
<p>While you were there, I know that you worked with Professor Krause. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you and he talk before you decided to go to Brown? Did he describe the program to you, and did you know that you would be working with him?
+
<p>Yes. In view of the fact that I had already studied chemistry and wanted to study it some more, he was the natural choice. He was the head of the Chemical Department at that time and was for many years afterwards. He died in 1967. I think he was about 90 years old. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, and then I read about the kind of attention he had gotten from other people. Having a certain amount of outstanding accomplishments of his own helped my decision.
+
<p>Did you and he talk before you decided to go to Brown? Did he describe the program to you, and did you know that you would be working with him? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you begin working on a research project with him immediately?
+
<p>Yes, and then I read about the kind of attention he had gotten from other people. Having a certain amount of outstanding accomplishments of his own helped my decision. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, although I am reasonably sure that it was not solely under him. Some of the younger members of the staff also were involved, like: Larry Foster who a good chemist. He did well under Dr. Krause, and I did well under Krause and Foster.
+
<p>Did you begin working on a research project with him immediately? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Now when you graduated from Baylor with your degrees in math and chemistry, might you have gone on to study math? Why did you choose to study chemistry? Was it because the Brown scholarship was there?
+
<p>Yes, although I am reasonably sure that it was not solely under him. Some of the younger members of the staff also were involved, like: Larry Foster who a good chemist. He did well under Dr. Krause, and I did well under Krause and Foster. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I guess it reduced to working with visible things.
+
<p>Now when you graduated from Baylor with your degrees in math and chemistry, might you have gone on to study math? Why did you choose to study chemistry? Was it because the Brown scholarship was there? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you like that? Did you like the tangible?
+
<p>I guess it reduced to working with visible things. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
The tangible things made it more worthwhile in a way.
+
<p>Did you like that? Did you like the tangible? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
It is funny that you should say that because in an article that you wrote, I guess in the 1950s, you described your work in graduate school with germanium as interesting to you because it was an exotic element that did not appear to have any uses.
+
<p>The tangible things made it more worthwhile in a way. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, that appeared very interesting to me. We were studying it and studying it, but there was no use that could be made of germanium at that time.  
+
<p>It is funny that you should say that because in an article that you wrote, I guess in the 1950s, you described your work in graduate school with germanium as interesting to you because it was an exotic element that did not appear to have any uses. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
When you say "we were...studying it and studying it," do you mean you and Krause, or was there a lot of activity?
+
<p>Yes, that appeared very interesting to me. We were studying it and studying it, but there was no use that could be made of germanium at that time. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, there was quite a lot of activity.
+
<p>When you say "we were...studying it and studying it," do you mean you and Krause, or was there a lot of activity? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Really? Why were people interested in it? What made people think it was worth looking at?
+
<p>Yes, there was quite a lot of activity. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I do not know whether they were impressed with the way I was, but I guess you can only hope that everything has some value. And it was always possibilities that somebody would eventually come up something, but nothing had been done. We, on the other hand, had a lot of students working on germanium.
+
<p>Really? Why were people interested in it? What made people think it was worth looking at? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Now when you were at Brown, were your classes only in chemistry, or did you keep up studies in math or take some courses in physics?
+
<p>I do not know whether they were impressed with the way I was, but I guess you can only hope that everything has some value. And it was always possibilities that somebody would eventually come up something, but nothing had been done. We, on the other hand, had a lot of students working on germanium. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I do not remember doing a lot of physics.
+
<p>Now when you were at Brown, were your classes only in chemistry, or did you keep up studies in math or take some courses in physics? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Yes. I think of the late 'twenties as being an especially dynamic time in physics particularly with the introduction of quantum mechanics, but these things had implications in chemistry—different models of the atom. Were you conscious of all that activity?
+
<p>I do not remember doing a lot of physics. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, I was aware. I think a good many people had reason to be interested in other things and the things that I was interested in.  
+
<p>Yes. I think of the late 'twenties as being an especially dynamic time in physics particularly with the introduction of quantum mechanics, but these things had implications in chemistry—different models of the atom. Were you conscious of all that activity? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Well, I guess what I am asking is not for you to defend your choice of research topics, but I want to know what the material that you were responsible for. If in the late 'twenties chemists were following developments in atomic models.
+
<p>Yes, I was aware. I think a good many people had reason to be interested in other things and the things that I was interested in. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
You had to study the periodic table anyway and try to understand just why we have the periodic table, what it was and what was the periodicity. What did it mean?
+
<p>Well, I guess what I am asking is not for you to defend your choice of research topics, but I want to know what the material that you were responsible for. If in the late 'twenties chemists were following developments in atomic models. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
So in your work with germanium were you trying to understand that element and its place in the table of elements, or was there something fundamental that you were considering?
+
<p>You had to study the periodic table anyway and try to understand just why we have the periodic table, what it was and what was the periodicity. What did it mean? </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I was interested also in silicon but not as much involved with it as with germanium. Of course the fact that they were both similar, but just a little bit further along in the periodic table, so I learned something about silicon too. I did some work on it, but not nearly as much as I did on germanium.
+
<p>So in your work with [[Archives:From Germanium to Silicon, A History of Change in the Technology of the Semiconductors|germanium]] were you trying to understand that element and its place in the table of elements, or was there something fundamental that you were considering? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Yes. While you were in Providence, did your now wife — and I realize she was not your wife then — did she come up to Providence with you?
+
<p>I was interested also in silicon but not as much involved with it as with germanium. Of course the fact that they were both similar, but just a little bit further along in the periodic table, so I learned something about silicon too. I did some work on it, but not nearly as much as I did on germanium. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, she came up to visit me, and I took her up to Boston and gave her a good view of a lot of the things Boston is famous for. I guess it was along about that time that we decided that we would get married.
+
<p>Yes. While you were in Providence, did your now wife — and I realize she was not your wife then — did she come up to Providence with you? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was she still in school then? Is that why she was still in Texas?
+
<p>Yes, she came up to visit me, and I took her up to Boston and gave her a good view of a lot of the things Boston is famous for. I guess it was along about that time that we decided that we would get married. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
No, actually she was not in school, but she was a teacher in school. She taught in West, Texas. It was a little town about 50 miles from—it might not be that far—from Waco, on the road to Dallas. She enjoyed that. Then she taught further out in West Texas at a couple of places. She taught history and English, and then she came back to Mart, which is 18 miles south and slightly east of Waco.
+
<p>Was she still in school then? Is that why she was still in Texas? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you have to work while you were at Brown? Did the scholarship cover all your expenses or was it necessary for you to find a job?
+
<p>No, actually she was not in school, but she was a teacher in school. She taught in West, Texas. It was a little town about 50 miles from—it might not be that far—from Waco, on the road to Dallas. She enjoyed that. Then she taught further out in West Texas at a couple of places. She taught history and English, and then she came back to Mart, which is 18 miles south and slightly east of Waco. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
My father was able to help me out. He gave me a certain amount of money.
+
<p>Did you have to work while you were at Brown? Did the scholarship cover all your expenses or was it necessary for you to find a job? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
So between the scholarship and this other, you were able to live?
+
<p>My father was able to help me out. He gave me a certain amount of money. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>So between the scholarship and this other, you were able to live? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You said at the beginning of your undergraduate career, your parents were anxious to have you stay near home. Why was that so?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Because I think it was mainly what most parents feel: they like to see their children fairly frequently.  
+
<p>You said at the beginning of your undergraduate career, your parents were anxious to have you stay near home. Why was that so? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
So this was simply a matter of you aging a little bit and leaving the nest, which you were able to travel so far away?
+
<p>Because I think it was mainly what most parents feel: they like to see their children fairly frequently. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Of course I did not travel back and forth as much as I would like to have, but I did managed once in a while go back home.
+
<p>So this was simply a matter of you aging a little bit and leaving the nest, which you were able to travel so far away? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
On holidays? Maybe twice a year?
+
<p>Of course I did not travel back and forth as much as I would like to have, but I did managed once in a while go back home. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>On holidays? Maybe twice a year? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You got your master's degree and your Ph.D., were they separate efforts? Or were you working toward a Ph.D. and then they just give you the master's as a matter of course?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
No, I had to write it in such a way that it indicated that I was learning a few things.  
+
<p>You got your master's degree and your Ph.D., were they separate efforts? Or were you working toward a Ph.D. and then they just give you the master's as a matter of course? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Right. And when did you get the master's degree?
+
<p>No, I had to write it in such a way that it indicated that I was learning a few things. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
In the spring of 1928.
+
<p>Right. And when did you get the master's degree? </p>
  
=== Bell Laboratories<br> ===
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
==== Early Days ====
+
<p>In the spring of 1928. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
=== Bell Laboratories  ===
  
And your doctorate?
+
==== Early Days  ====
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I got my doctorate in 1931, but that was about a year after I had left Brown and taken a job at Bell Telephone Laboratories. I had not expected to have any interest in living in New York, but I did. And so, the Christmas before I was to finish up my degree it went to Bell.
+
<p>And your doctorate? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
That was the Christmas of 1930?
+
<p>I got my doctorate in 1931, but that was about a year after I had left Brown and taken a job at [[Bell Labs|Bell Telephone Laboratories]]. I had not expected to have any interest in living in New York, but I did. And so, the Christmas before I was to finish up my degree it went to Bell. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>That was the Christmas of 1930? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Are you saying then at Christmas there was an opportunity for you to go see what was being done?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
What was being done there and the things they did? That is all. And Dr. Krause knew somebody. He had a fellow who had previously been at Brown who had gone to Bell Telephone Laboratories. He called him up and told him that I would like to visit Bell Laboratories. So, they made an agreement with me. R.R. Williams was head of the Chemistry Department, and Burns was the assistant head.
+
<p>Are you saying then at Christmas there was an opportunity for you to go see what was being done? </p>
  
When I went down there, they spent a lot of time showing me what was going on and did a very good job of it. Apparently, they liked what they saw in me and said when as I was leaving when you get a job, do not forget us. Do not go anywhere else before you talk with us.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
And, this was along about February that R.R. Williams was in Providence, and when he came there, he visited me in my laboratory.  
+
<p>What was being done there and the things they did? That is all. And Dr. Krause knew somebody. He had a fellow who had previously been at Brown who had gone to Bell Telephone Laboratories. He called him up and told him that I would like to visit Bell Laboratories. So, they made an agreement with me. R.R. Williams was head of the Chemistry Department, and Burns was the assistant head. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When I went down there, they spent a lot of time showing me what was going on and did a very good job of it. Apparently, they liked what they saw in me and said when as I was leaving when you get a job, do not forget us. Do not go anywhere else before you talk with us. </p>
  
What interested you in the Labs in the first place? Did all the students know about Bell Labs? Let me ask first; were you interested from a scientific standpoint or thinking in terms of your career?
+
<p>And, this was along about February that R.R. Williams was in Providence, and when he came there, he visited me in my laboratory. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I just wanted to see what was going on. It had a reputation for being a very outstanding research laboratory, a place where they had lots of people doing hard jobs that required good background training. I just thought I ought to look around a bit.
+
<p>What interested you in the Labs in the first place? Did all the students know about Bell Labs? Let me ask first; were you interested from a scientific standpoint or thinking in terms of your career? </p>
  
Because I had heard so many remarks about what a wonderful place it was, I just thought I would like to go down and see what it was like. So, I did have an opportunity to see a lot down there, but I was not really going down there to ask for a job. I just went down there to find out more about what you do when you go to work after finishing college?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I just wanted to see what was going on. It had a reputation for being a very outstanding research laboratory, a place where they had lots of people doing hard jobs that required good background training. I just thought I ought to look around a bit. </p>
  
Were you concerned about that?
+
<p>Because I had heard so many remarks about what a wonderful place it was, I just thought I would like to go down and see what it was like. So, I did have an opportunity to see a lot down there, but I was not really going down there to ask for a job. I just went down there to find out more about what you do when you go to work after finishing college? </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I was thinking that maybe I would want to go to the place like DuPont.
+
<p>Were you concerned about that? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
During these early years of the Depression, was there anxiety among the students about finding jobs? Was there much money in research?
+
<p>I was thinking that maybe I would want to go to the place like DuPont. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, you wondered just what salaries they paid and what do they do for it? What are they expected to do? And what are some of the best examples. They showed me a lot.
+
<p>During these early years of the Depression, was there anxiety among the students about finding jobs? Was there much money in research? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
What things? Like, was their equipment especially good quality or were their research projects exciting?  
+
<p>Yes, you wondered just what salaries they paid and what do they do for it? What are they expected to do? And what are some of the best examples. They showed me a lot. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I do not know whether I understood just exactly what their projects were, but I was very impressed with R.R. Williams because of the life that he lived. He had a son who was planning to attend Brown, so William stopped in dropped by and talked about the University.
+
<p>What things? Like, was their equipment especially good quality or were their research projects exciting? </p>
  
==== The Great Depression ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I do not know whether I understood just exactly what their projects were, but I was very impressed with R.R. Williams because of the life that he lived. He had a son who was planning to attend Brown, so William stopped in dropped by and talked about the University. </p>
  
While you were still at Brown, how much of your time did the chemistry work demand? Were you in the lab 12 hours a day, eight, or 20?
+
==== The Great Depression  ====
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
There were plenty of hours in the day that I was required to be in the lab. I do not remember just exactly how much, but more than an eight-hour day. Then because of the fact that we were in the Depression, a lot of people lost their jobs there.
+
<p>While you were still at Brown, how much of your time did the chemistry work demand? Were you in the lab 12 hours a day, eight, or 20? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
At Brown?
+
<p>There were plenty of hours in the day that I was required to be in the lab. I do not remember just exactly how much, but more than an eight-hour day. Then because of the fact that we were in the Depression, a lot of people lost their jobs there. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
At Bell. A lot of people had been working there for 15 years lost their jobs. Then Williams came around to me about a month after I was there, and he warned me that there was going to be a lot of people laid off. He knew that I was planning to get married soon, and we got married almost on March 7th.
+
<p>At Brown? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Of 1932?
+
<p>At Bell. A lot of people had been working there for 15 years lost their jobs. Then Williams came around to me about a month after I was there, and he warned me that there was going to be a lot of people laid off. He knew that I was planning to get married soon, and we got married almost on March 7th. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Of 1931.
+
<p>Of 1932? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
So then that means that you began at Bell in November of 1930, is that right?
+
<p>Of 1931. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It was 1931. So he came, and he just did not want me to really do something that I should not do. And he wanted me to know that I did not have to worry about losing my job even though a lot of people that had been with the company for 15 years were losing their jobs.
+
<p>So then that means that you began at Bell in November of 1930, is that right? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Why was that? Why did you have this job security?
+
<p>It was 1931. So he came, and he just did not want me to really do something that I should not do. And he wanted me to know that I did not have to worry about losing my job even though a lot of people that had been with the company for 15 years were losing their jobs. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
He had chosen me, and he wanted me to be there.
+
<p>Why was that? Why did you have this job security? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
When you say a lot of people lost their jobs, in all of Bell Labs or in just the Chemistry Department? Or equally among a lot?
+
<p>He had chosen me, and he wanted me to be there. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I probably knew at one time just what degree and how it varied from one part of the Labs to the other. But a lot of them lost their jobs. It was a bad time. We lived in a place in New York City initially. Where I lived was a YMCA before Lana came up. We saw a lot of people standing in bread lines in New York City right there in a big square.
+
<p>When you say a lot of people lost their jobs, in all of Bell Labs or in just the Chemistry Department? Or equally among a lot? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
I guess you had spoken to Williams at Bell before, in 1930, but it sounds like you were not too worried about not finding a job. It sounds like you were fairly confident that you would be able to find something, despite the Depression. Is that true?
+
<p>I probably knew at one time just what degree and how it varied from one part of the Labs to the other. But a lot of them lost their jobs. It was a bad time. We lived in a place in New York City initially. Where I lived was a YMCA before Lana came up. We saw a lot of people standing in bread lines in New York City right there in a big square. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. Of course, I was surprised that the Depression hit when it did. A lot of other people were surprised, too.  
+
<p>I guess you had spoken to Williams at Bell before, in 1930, but it sounds like you were not too worried about not finding a job. It sounds like you were fairly confident that you would be able to find something, despite the Depression. Is that true? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You were promised that your job would be preserved, but did the tight times affect your work anyway? For instance, did the equipment available to you change?
+
<p>Yes. Of course, I was surprised that the Depression hit when it did. A lot of other people were surprised, too. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
No, I got what I needed.
+
<p>You were promised that your job would be preserved, but did the tight times affect your work anyway? For instance, did the equipment available to you change? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
The people they kept were well supplied then?
+
<p>No, I got what I needed. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, reasonably well.
+
<p>The people they kept were well supplied then? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Do you remember what your starting salary was?
+
<p>Yes, reasonably well. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I think it was $60 a week. It rather rapidly increased to about $45 a week (sic).
+
<p>Do you remember what your starting salary was? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Over what period of time?
+
<p>I think it was $60 a week. It rather rapidly increased to about $45 a week (sic). </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It happened fairly fast.
+
<p>Over what period of time? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You mean like just a few months?
+
<p>It happened fairly fast. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I think so.
+
<p>You mean like just a few months? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
And you say at this time you were at Bell Labs in New York at the Laboratory they had on 34th Street?
+
<p>I think so. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Bell Labs was at about 12th Street, and about six years later it was moved out to Summit.
+
<p>And you say at this time you were at Bell Labs in New York at the Laboratory they had on 34th Street? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You were telling the story of coming to Bell Labs. You toured it in November of 1930.
+
<p>Bell Labs was at about 12th Street, and about six years later it was moved out to Summit. </p>
  
=== Speech: American Academy of Achievement ===
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>You were telling the story of coming to Bell Labs. You toured it in November of 1930. </p>
  
Yes, by the way I found the speech. It was given to 350 outstanding high school students from 48 states that came to this meeting of the American Academy of Achievement that met here in Dallas. Here is what it said:
+
=== Speech: American Academy of Achievement ===
  
"You young people are so well trained, so well read, and are so well informed, that we who have been invited here are hard-pressed to present you with something new. In spite of this, I feel that we have much in common with you, particularly with respect to habits of thought and attitudes. For example, I have always had considerable curiosity with particular interest in new things and new ideas. This has led me over the years to a closer look at some of the basic phenomena in science and stimulated a strong desire to exploit discoveries for practical use. I also share the delight in the aesthetic that many of you have. Like you, I enjoy adventure. In particular, I am interested in pioneering; that is, the kind of pioneering demanded by our rapidly changing and highly technical society. These interests have greatly influenced my decisions and were often crucial in the directions my career has taken. For example, these interests in the new, the aesthetic and in the pioneering influenced my choice of graduate studies.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
"I remember particularly two pictures in a brochure from Brown University and one, which I still see clearly in my mind: Professor Charles A. Krause, with his hand on a large Dewar flask was standing in a laboratory literally filled with fascinating and beautiful networks of glass tubing and stop-cocks. Today such laboratories are commonplace. Then they were a novelty. Added to the fascination of the complex apparatus was the title of the other photograph, indicating that it was for germanium hydride gas. As I, attracted at first as a math major from Baylor, enrolled in Brown University, little did I or anyone else I knew 40 years ago dream that I — a boy from the north central plains of Texas — would inherit this intriguing laboratory and become involved in research on germanium under the guidance of Professor Krause, then one of the two experts on germanium and silicon chemistry in the United States.  
+
<p>Yes, by the way I found the speech. It was given to 350 outstanding high school students from 48 states that came to this meeting of the American Academy of Achievement that met here in Dallas. Here is what it said: </p>
  
"In the course of my early studies under Professor Krause, I acquired an intimate knowledge of many of the properties of germanium and found its complete uselessness a challenge. To me, this bright silver-colored element was — and still is — an exotic and beautiful material. My intense curiosity about it and its sister element silicon, two elements which have since become the basis of the transistor industry, influenced my decisions and shaped my professional destiny much more and over a much longer period than I would have guessed at the time. It was often what I did not know about them, as much as what I did know, that led me on. My purely academic pursuits at Brown turned out to be one of the most practical and worthwhile experiences of my career since the interest and background led, many years later, to my most important technical contribution, the growth of high-purity, and high-perfection single crystals of germanium.  
+
<p>"You young people are so well trained, so well read, and are so well informed, that we who have been invited here are hard-pressed to present you with something new. In spite of this, I feel that we have much in common with you, particularly with respect to habits of thought and attitudes. For example, I have always had considerable curiosity with particular interest in new things and new ideas. This has led me over the years to a closer look at some of the basic phenomena in science and stimulated a strong desire to exploit discoveries for practical use. I also share the delight in the aesthetic that many of you have. Like you, I enjoy adventure. In particular, I am interested in pioneering; that is, the kind of pioneering demanded by our rapidly changing and highly technical society. These interests have greatly influenced my decisions and were often crucial in the directions my career has taken. For example, these interests in the new, the aesthetic and in the pioneering influenced my choice of graduate studies. </p>
  
"Thanks to this early start and to a broad interest in things scientific and electrical, I grew crystals at a time when they were an urgent but only dimly-perceived need in the early days of the transistor research at Bell Telephone Laboratories. Curiosity led me to the Bell Telephone Laboratories. During my graduate studies, I had decided that New York City was the one location where I definitely would not work. However, my fellow students aroused my curiosity about the reportedly ideal environment for research that existed at the Bell Telephone Laboratories then located in New York City.  
+
<p>"I remember particularly two pictures in a brochure from Brown University and one, which I still see clearly in my mind: Professor Charles A. Krause, with his hand on a large Dewar flask was standing in a laboratory literally filled with fascinating and beautiful networks of glass tubing and stop-cocks. Today such laboratories are commonplace. Then they were a novelty. Added to the fascination of the complex apparatus was the title of the other photograph, indicating that it was for germanium hydride gas. As I, attracted at first as a math major from Baylor, enrolled in Brown University, little did I or anyone else I knew 40 years ago dream that I — a boy from the north central plains of Texas — would inherit this intriguing laboratory and become involved in research on germanium under the guidance of Professor Krause, then one of the two experts on germanium and silicon chemistry in the United States. </p>
  
"Motivated by curiosity rather than job seeking, I visited the Bell Labs during my Christmas vacation in graduate school. Much to my surprise, Drs. R.R. Williams and R.M. Burns, then heads of Chemical Research at BTL, suggested that I not accept employment elsewhere until I heard from them. Dr. Williams was the well-known scientist who not only administered Bell's chemical research, but who for years did vitamin B1 research in his garage and finally synthesized it and used it to enrich rice and to cure beri-beri in the Orient. Dr. Burns is well known as a science administrator and for his electrochemical contributions. I was impressed by them and accepted their advice.  
+
<p>"In the course of my early studies under Professor Krause, I acquired an intimate knowledge of many of the properties of germanium and found its complete uselessness a challenge. To me, this bright silver-colored element was — and still is — an exotic and beautiful material. My intense curiosity about it and its sister element silicon, two elements which have since become the basis of the transistor industry, influenced my decisions and shaped my professional destiny much more and over a much longer period than I would have guessed at the time. It was often what I did not know about them, as much as what I did know, that led me on. My purely academic pursuits at Brown turned out to be one of the most practical and worthwhile experiences of my career since the interest and background led, many years later, to my most important technical contribution, the growth of high-purity, and high-perfection single crystals of germanium. </p>
  
"As a result, I spent 22 exciting and stimulating years trying to acquire a scientific understanding and to use it to develop useful electronic materials and devices for the Bell Telephone System and for society.
+
<p>"Thanks to this early start and to a broad interest in things scientific and electrical, I grew crystals at a time when they were an urgent but only dimly-perceived need in the early days of the transistor research at Bell Telephone Laboratories. Curiosity led me to the Bell Telephone Laboratories. During my graduate studies, I had decided that New York City was the one location where I definitely would not work. However, my fellow students aroused my curiosity about the reportedly ideal environment for research that existed at the Bell Telephone Laboratories then located in New York City. </p>
  
"Perhaps I should mention for the benefit of those entering your creative careers, that even at a laboratory as enlightened, contribution-oriented and well-managed as Bell Telephone Laboratories, the opportunity to work on germanium single crystals did not just fall in my lap but was the result, not only of a long and intense interest in germanium, but also of much persistence in trying to find a relevant, important application, and to find justification for me personally to work on it instead of leaving it to others already assigned a germanium materials responsibility. The opportunity to grow germanium in silicon single crystals was, of course, crucial to whatever contributions I have made to the development of the transistor and, therefore, to the most exciting aspects of my career—first at Bell Telephone Laboratories and then at Texas Instruments. The easily recognizable, enormous industrial potential of the transistor and the rapid advances in science that its development encouraged, provided exciting days for all of us who participated in its development.  
+
<p>"Motivated by curiosity rather than job seeking, I visited the Bell Labs during my Christmas vacation in graduate school. Much to my surprise, Drs. R.R. Williams and R.M. Burns, then heads of Chemical Research at BTL, suggested that I not accept employment elsewhere until I heard from them. Dr. Williams was the well-known scientist who not only administered Bell's chemical research, but who for years did vitamin B1 research in his garage and finally synthesized it and used it to enrich rice and to cure beri-beri in the Orient. Dr. Burns is well known as a science administrator and for his electrochemical contributions. I was impressed by them and accepted their advice. </p>
  
"Interest in modern-day industrial pioneering and the enlarged opportunity to exploit my understanding of science and technology brought me to Dallas in 1953. Mr. P. E. Haggerty, then Executive Vice President of TI and now Chairman of the Board, offered me the opportunity to start an advanced electronics research laboratory, then something new in the Southwest. I had already felt at Bell Labs some of the excitement of participating in starting a new industry, and this offer gave me a chance not only to use my background, experience and knowledge of science and technology to direct innovation in the world of things, but to find out whether I could be successful in selecting people and programs of research to create new business. The intensity of effort and total involvement which followed quickly after my joining TI helped to alleviate my concern about leaving good friends in the Bell Telephone Laboratories, which I had found to be indeed a center of research excellence.
+
<p>"As a result, I spent 22 exciting and stimulating years trying to acquire a scientific understanding and to use it to develop useful electronic materials and devices for the Bell Telephone System and for society. </p>
  
"As director of this new laboratory of Texas Instruments, I felt proud and highly rewarded when the first commercial silicon transistor was developed within the first two years."
+
<p>"Perhaps I should mention for the benefit of those entering your creative careers, that even at a laboratory as enlightened, contribution-oriented and well-managed as Bell Telephone Laboratories, the opportunity to work on germanium single crystals did not just fall in my lap but was the result, not only of a long and intense interest in germanium, but also of much persistence in trying to find a relevant, important application, and to find justification for me personally to work on it instead of leaving it to others already assigned a germanium materials responsibility. The opportunity to grow germanium in silicon single crystals was, of course, crucial to whatever contributions I have made to the development of the transistor and, therefore, to the most exciting aspects of my career—first at Bell Telephone Laboratories and then at Texas Instruments. The easily recognizable, enormous industrial potential of the transistor and the rapid advances in science that its development encouraged, provided exciting days for all of us who participated in its development. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>"Interest in modern-day industrial pioneering and the enlarged opportunity to exploit my understanding of science and technology brought me to Dallas in 1953. Mr. [[Patrick E. Haggerty|P. E. Haggerty]], then Executive Vice President of TI and now Chairman of the Board, offered me the opportunity to start an advanced electronics research laboratory, then something new in the Southwest. I had already felt at Bell Labs some of the excitement of participating in starting a new industry, and this offer gave me a chance not only to use my background, experience and knowledge of science and technology to direct innovation in the world of things, but to find out whether I could be successful in selecting people and programs of research to create new business. The intensity of effort and total involvement which followed quickly after my joining TI helped to alleviate my concern about leaving good friends in the Bell Telephone Laboratories, which I had found to be indeed a center of research excellence. </p>
  
This was on the 25th anniversary?
+
<p>"As director of this new laboratory of Texas Instruments, I felt proud and highly rewarded when the first commercial silicon transistor was developed within the first two years." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It is 1980, March 17th.
+
<p>This was on the 25th anniversary? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Yes, St. Patrick's Day.
+
<p>It is 1980, March 17th. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. Here’s what the award I received stated: "On the 25th anniversary of the first commercial silicon transistor, this award is given to recognize the personal contribution of Gordon K. Teal in a technical achievement that not only gave Texas Instruments a position of prominence in the electronics industry, but also accelerated the entire cycle of semiconductor device utilization in the whole world." Signed, Mark Shephard, President, I'm sure. And this is Honorary Chairman, Texas Instruments, Inc.
+
<p>Yes, St. Patrick's Day. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
And also Haggerty.
+
<p>Yes. Here’s what the award I received stated: "On the 25th anniversary of the first commercial silicon transistor, this award is given to recognize the personal contribution of Gordon K. Teal in a technical achievement that not only gave Texas Instruments a position of prominence in the electronics industry, but also accelerated the entire cycle of [[Semiconductors|semiconductor]] device utilization in the whole world." Signed, Mark Shephard, President, I'm sure. And this is Honorary Chairman, Texas Instruments, Inc. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, Haggerty. Patrick Haggerty.  
+
<p>And also Haggerty. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
It says "Texas Instruments Honorary," why is that so?
+
<p>Yes, Haggerty. Patrick Haggerty. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
He was Honorary Chairman by that time.
+
<p>It says "Texas Instruments Honorary," why is that so? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Shephard, therefore, was the Chairman, and Haggerty was the Honorary Chairman.
+
<p>He was Honorary Chairman by that time. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Hope I am not boring you to take this time.... I am not sure just how far I have read any of these things. Let us continue with the speech:
+
<p>Shephard, therefore, was the Chairman, and Haggerty was the Honorary Chairman. </p>
  
"...the intensity of effort and total involvement which followed quickly after joining TI helped alleviate my concern about leaving good friends in the Bell Telephone Laboratories, which I found to indeed be a center of research excellence.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
"Then as director of this new laboratory at Texas Instruments, I felt quite highly rewarded when the first commercial silicon transistor was developed within the first two years. However, this illusion of quick success is a bit misleading since some of the crucial decisions as to the technology to use were based on many years of interest and experience. It has been a rewarding experience to have helped TI build a thriving business in the semiconductor industry and to have created an outstandingly productive research laboratory where none had existed before. Many services and products that have had tremendous impact on society and, in turn, on TI were spawned directly or indirectly from these new research laboratories. Some of these outstanding examples which have long since proved their worth are the germanium and silicon transistors, high-purity silicon material, digital-size technology and infrared technology, to name a few of the more prominent. In addition to the personal satisfaction that I obtained in connection with the productivity of the laboratory in producing new business, I have found it very rewarding to select people and then observe them grow in their understanding and their abilities and in their contributions.
+
<p>Hope I am not boring you to take this time.... I am not sure just how far I have read any of these things. Let us continue with the speech: </p>
  
"About a year ago—that is, about 1963, about four years ago—I began another adventure that I'd never anticipated in my most imaginative moments. I moved with my family to Europe to study the European scientific and technical community. TI was concerned about the philosophy and practice of research in support of its subsidiaries in England, France, Italy, Germany and Holland. Although there were already a considerable number of American companies engaged in business in Europe and a number of common practices already developed, the alternatives involving the operation of supporting research in Europe were so numerous and so great that this must be considered an activity open to pioneering and innovation. For over two years my family enjoyed the beauty and culture of such places as London, Paris and Rome while I visited the offices of government laboratories, industries and universities, gaining new ideas and impressions through discussions with officials, managers, scientists and professors. This was exciting research in behalf of my company, but much different from any that I had ever attempted before or in which I had become involved. Factors such as changing international relations and situations, mores and habits of people, availability of international transportation, the attractiveness of different locations to scientists, international business practices and product acceptance became important.  
+
<p>"...the intensity of effort and total involvement which followed quickly after joining TI helped alleviate my concern about leaving good friends in the Bell Telephone Laboratories, which I found to indeed be a center of research excellence. </p>
  
"I am now in the process of concluding still another adventure which was totally unanticipated. A little over two years ago while living in Rome, I was awakened at midnight by a transatlantic telephone call from my friend, Pat Haggerty, President of TI at the time. He said Dr. Ashton, Director of the National Bureau of Standards, had written to him requesting that I be loaned to the Bureau to be the first appointed Director of its newly formed Institute of Materials Research in the nation's capital.  
+
<p>"Then as director of this new laboratory at Texas Instruments, I felt quite highly rewarded when the first commercial silicon transistor was developed within the first two years. However, this illusion of quick success is a bit misleading since some of the crucial decisions as to the technology to use were based on many years of interest and experience. It has been a rewarding experience to have helped TI build a thriving business in the semiconductor industry and to have created an outstandingly productive research laboratory where none had existed before. Many services and products that have had tremendous impact on society and, in turn, on TI were spawned directly or indirectly from these new research laboratories. Some of these outstanding examples which have long since proved their worth are the germanium and [[Silicon Transistor|silicon transistors]], high-purity silicon material, digital-size technology and infrared technology, to name a few of the more prominent. In addition to the personal satisfaction that I obtained in connection with the productivity of the laboratory in producing new business, I have found it very rewarding to select people and then observe them grow in their understanding and their abilities and in their contributions. </p>
  
"At the time of my going to Washington, it had in it over 600 people actively engaged in very basic science in areas such as analytical chemistry, inorganic materials, polymers, metallurgy, reactor radiation and cryogenics. In many respects, it is a scientist's paradise. In my case the challenge was not only to assist the Institute to be a center of excellence for good basic research, but to help discover new directions to go in order that the Institute's programs have maximum impact on important national goals. Besides contributing new knowledge to the basic concepts of matter, the Institute provides the precision data on materials needed by science and industry in making the preliminary calculations necessary for major decisions in industry and government.  
+
<p>"About a year ago—that is, about 1963, about four years ago—I began another adventure that I'd never anticipated in my most imaginative moments. I moved with my family to Europe to study the European scientific and technical community. TI was concerned about the philosophy and practice of research in support of its subsidiaries in England, France, Italy, Germany and Holland. Although there were already a considerable number of American companies engaged in business in Europe and a number of common practices already developed, the alternatives involving the operation of supporting research in Europe were so numerous and so great that this must be considered an activity open to pioneering and innovation. For over two years my family enjoyed the beauty and culture of such places as London, Paris and Rome while I visited the offices of government laboratories, industries and universities, gaining new ideas and impressions through discussions with officials, managers, scientists and professors. This was exciting research in behalf of my company, but much different from any that I had ever attempted before or in which I had become involved. Factors such as changing international relations and situations, mores and habits of people, availability of international transportation, the attractiveness of different locations to scientists, international business practices and product acceptance became important. </p>
  
"These decisions may relate to the super-speed airplane, the desalinization of water, the development of atomic propulsion systems and many other problems of national importance. This tour of duty in the world's largest laboratory devoted to physical measurements has given me the opportunity not only to become aware of much of the research in other laboratories of the U.S. government, but also to visit in the major laboratories of India, Pakistan, Israel and Russia. And to help set up a sizeable international research program on foreign currencies in the first three countries—that is, India, Pakistan and Israel. This program will contribute primarily to the Bureau's mission but will have side benefits to the country's own development.
+
<p>"I am now in the process of concluding still another adventure which was totally unanticipated. A little over two years ago while living in Rome, I was awakened at midnight by a transatlantic telephone call from my friend, Pat Haggerty, President of TI at the time. He said Dr. Ashton, Director of the National Bureau of Standards, had written to him requesting that I be loaned to the Bureau to be the first appointed Director of its newly formed Institute of Materials Research in the nation's capital. </p>
  
"Since we are saluting excellence today, I would be remiss were I not to salute these centers of excellence and the friends associated with them that have furnished me so much stimulation, new knowledge and so many exciting opportunities and experiences. You, a very select group, will, I am sure, find your own centers of excellence that will greatly influence your careers. I look forward to hearing of the contributions that I am confident you will make as new opportunities come your way."
+
<p>"At the time of my going to Washington, it had in it over 600 people actively engaged in very basic science in areas such as analytical chemistry, inorganic materials, polymers, metallurgy, reactor radiation and cryogenics. In many respects, it is a scientist's paradise. In my case the challenge was not only to assist the Institute to be a center of excellence for good basic research, but to help discover new directions to go in order that the Institute's programs have maximum impact on important national goals. Besides contributing new knowledge to the basic concepts of matter, the Institute provides the precision data on materials needed by science and industry in making the preliminary calculations necessary for major decisions in industry and government. </p>
  
Goldstein:
+
<p>"These decisions may relate to the super-speed airplane, the desalinization of water, the development of atomic propulsion systems and many other problems of national importance. This tour of duty in the world's largest laboratory devoted to physical measurements has given me the opportunity not only to become aware of much of the research in other laboratories of the U.S. government, but also to visit in the major laboratories of India, Pakistan, Israel and Russia. And to help set up a sizeable international research program on foreign currencies in the first three countries—that is, India, Pakistan and Israel. This program will contribute primarily to the Bureau's mission but will have side benefits to the country's own development. </p>
  
You wrote that while you were at NBS?
+
<p>"Since we are saluting excellence today, I would be remiss were I not to salute these centers of excellence and the friends associated with them that have furnished me so much stimulation, new knowledge and so many exciting opportunities and experiences. You, a very select group, will, I am sure, find your own centers of excellence that will greatly influence your careers. I look forward to hearing of the contributions that I am confident you will make as new opportunities come your way." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Goldstein: </p>
  
Yes. And I gave it to this large group. I do not remember whether we had all 350 there, but I think we did.
+
<p>You wrote that while you were at NBS? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
It stimulates a lot of questions for me. I think we may have started to talk about this yesterday. You said that you were attracted to germanium because of its apparent utter uselessness. Was it in an effort to make germanium worthwhile?
+
<p>Yes. And I gave it to this large group. I do not remember whether we had all 350 there, but I think we did. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Sure.  
+
<p>It stimulates a lot of questions for me. I think we may have started to talk about this yesterday. You said that you were attracted to germanium because of its apparent utter uselessness. Was it in an effort to make germanium worthwhile? </p>
  
=== Bell Laboratories Cont'd.<br> ===
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
==== Work on Heavy Hydrogen ====
+
<p>Sure. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
=== Bell Laboratories Cont'd.  ===
  
You said Krause was one of the two experts in germanium. So, he was already working on it, and he got you interested in that particular thing? And then you tried to find something worthwhile in it? Also, sometime during the 'thirties, I know, germanium was put to use in rectifiers. Was it during the 'thirties or was it before then that this lack of application existed?
+
==== Work on Heavy Hydrogen  ====
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
As a matter of fact, I worked on it back in the early days of being at Bell.
+
<p>You said Krause was one of the two experts in germanium. So, he was already working on it, and he got you interested in that particular thing? And then you tried to find something worthwhile in it? Also, sometime during the 'thirties, I know, germanium was put to use in rectifiers. Was it during the 'thirties or was it before then that this lack of application existed? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
I know one of the first things you did at Bell Labs was work with Dr. Urey. He was at Columbia. You were working with Urey on heavy hydrogen. Could you talk about that assignment? Was that all you were doing, or were there other projects?
+
<p>As a matter of fact, I worked on it back in the early days of being at Bell. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I was doing that plus my job at Bell Labs. But what I mean by this spare time, it may not be the best way to describe it. I was actually a research associate for Urey. I went up to see Urey in 1932. I got well acquainted with him, and I asked him if I could come up there and work on some things I wanted to work on—spectra for one. And then I wanted to work on some problems that he had an interest in. So, I was the one who suggested that we might write such a paper.
+
<p>I know one of the first things you did at [[Bell Labs|Bell Labs]] was work with Dr. Urey. He was at Columbia. You were working with Urey on heavy hydrogen. Could you talk about that assignment? Was that all you were doing, or were there other projects? </p>
  
He was enthusiastic about it. I told him I would just like to learn as much as I could about his field. We were in the depths of the Depression at that time and I had more time on my hands because Bell Labs was having people come to work only three and a half days a week instead of the normal hours. When I first started there, why, we were working on Saturday as well as Friday and the rest of the week. So, I had a lot of spare time when I was not working for Bell Labs. And I thought it would be interesting to work with him. We lived very near to Columbia University at the time, and so that is one reason I knew as much about the Physics Department there. I guess I lived about three blocks from Columbia University.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I was doing that plus my job at Bell Labs. But what I mean by this spare time, it may not be the best way to describe it. I was actually a research associate for Urey. I went up to see Urey in 1932. I got well acquainted with him, and I asked him if I could come up there and work on some things I wanted to work on—spectra for one. And then I wanted to work on some problems that he had an interest in. So, I was the one who suggested that we might write such a paper. </p>
  
So you didn't go as an employee of Bell?
+
<p>He was enthusiastic about it. I told him I would just like to learn as much as I could about his field. We were in the depths of the Depression at that time and I had more time on my hands because Bell Labs was having people come to work only three and a half days a week instead of the normal hours. When I first started there, why, we were working on Saturday as well as Friday and the rest of the week. So, I had a lot of spare time when I was not working for Bell Labs. And I thought it would be interesting to work with him. We lived very near to Columbia University at the time, and so that is one reason I knew as much about the Physics Department there. I guess I lived about three blocks from Columbia University. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
No. It was completely my idea. It was a choice between going up and spending my time with him, or just not working and not doing anything.
+
<p>So you didn't go as an employee of Bell? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
That is interesting that Bell had you on reduced work schedules. When did that start?
+
<p>No. It was completely my idea. It was a choice between going up and spending my time with him, or just not working and not doing anything. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I think it started just about the time that I went up there because I did not want to waste my time. I wanted to be a research man, and if I were a research man, I would like to work on important problems. I knew that I could get suggestions from Urey about problems that would be worth working on. Therefore, he greeted my suggestion with enthusiasm. But then I was the one who suggested that we write this paper, and he agreed to it.
+
<p>That is interesting that Bell had you on reduced work schedules. When did that start? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Critical review of the literature?
+
<p>I think it started just about the time that I went up there because I did not want to waste my time. I wanted to be a research man, and if I were a research man, I would like to work on important problems. I knew that I could get suggestions from Urey about problems that would be worth working on. Therefore, he greeted my suggestion with enthusiasm. But then I was the one who suggested that we write this paper, and he agreed to it. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. See, this came out in 1935 — January 1935. It came out exactly at the time he got the Nobel Prize. In the same month.
+
<p>Critical review of the literature? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
And what did he receive the prize for?
+
<p>Yes. See, this came out in 1935 — January 1935. It came out exactly at the time he got the [[Nobel Prize|Nobel Prize]]. In the same month. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
For his discovery of heavy hydrogen.
+
<p>And what did he receive the prize for? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
That was before you began working with him that he discovered it?
+
<p>For his discovery of heavy hydrogen. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, he discovered it in maybe 1930 or '31. I do not remember actually.
+
<p>That was before you began working with him that he discovered it? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Let us see now, what stimulated an interest in heavy hydrogen?
+
<p>Yes, he discovered it in maybe 1930 or '31. I do not remember actually. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I could show you that.
+
<p>Let us see now, what stimulated an interest in heavy hydrogen? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Yes, you showed me the paper that you wrote with Urey. And you were telling me that you were sensitive to Nobel Prize winners.
+
<p>I could show you that. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I found them interesting people. You learned a lot by talking with them.
+
<p>Yes, you showed me the paper that you wrote with Urey. And you were telling me that you were sensitive to Nobel Prize winners. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Let me ask you, you approached Urey about spectra and worked on heavy hydrogen. But this is not different then your interest in semiconductors, in germanium?
+
<p>I found them interesting people. You learned a lot by talking with them. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I did not abandon my interest in other things, but this for the moment seemed about the most exciting thing that I had come in contact with. Additionally there was the prestige of working with a man of Urey's abilities, who had already discovered these things, but he had not been given the Nobel Prize until several years later.
+
<p>Let me ask you, you approached Urey about spectra and worked on heavy hydrogen. But this is not different then your interest in semiconductors, in germanium? </p>
  
I was just trying to make use of spare time I had on my hands. I took a course and studied spectra and did laboratory work on spectra in the Physics Department also.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I did not abandon my interest in other things, but this for the moment seemed about the most exciting thing that I had come in contact with. Additionally there was the prestige of working with a man of Urey's abilities, who had already discovered these things, but he had not been given the Nobel Prize until several years later. </p>
  
After you published the paper with Urey in January of '35, did you continue to work with him or did you start at Bell full time?
+
<p>I was just trying to make use of spare time I had on my hands. I took a course and studied spectra and did laboratory work on spectra in the Physics Department also. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I knew that he had already been recommended for the Nobel Prize, but he had not won it.
+
<p>After you published the paper with Urey in January of '35, did you continue to work with him or did you start at Bell full time? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
During that period, do you remember what projects you were working on at Bell? Looking at your lab notebooks, I saw that you were doing some work on laying down films. It was chemistry in putting down films of oxides. And I know that you went on to work on television tubes, on an iconoscope. Was your original chemistry work directed towards imaging tubes?
+
<p>I knew that he had already been recommended for the Nobel Prize, but he had not won it. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I think I would have to look up my notes on that to be sure.
+
<p>During that period, do you remember what projects you were working on at Bell? Looking at your lab notebooks, I saw that you were doing some work on laying down films. It was chemistry in putting down films of oxides. And I know that you went on to work on television tubes, on an [[Iconoscope|iconoscope]]. Was your original chemistry work directed towards imaging tubes? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did Bell have any research activity in heavy hydrogen or in spectra? Could you have unified the two?
+
<p>I think I would have to look up my notes on that to be sure. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
No. This idea was solely my own idea. I told Williams about it but nothing became of the conversation.
+
<p>Did Bell have any research activity in heavy hydrogen or in spectra? Could you have unified the two? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
How did they decide at Bell what to research? You said you told Williams about it. If he had gotten excited about the idea, might Bell Labs have begun a project on heavy hydrogen?
+
<p>No. This idea was solely my own idea. I told Williams about it but nothing became of the conversation. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I am sure I told Williams what I was doing. I do not think they would work on heavy hydrogen just because somebody else thought it was interesting — not at that time.
+
<p>How did they decide at Bell what to research? You said you told Williams about it. If he had gotten excited about the idea, might Bell Labs have begun a project on heavy hydrogen? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
See, what I am getting at is later on, I know that you suggested a number of times that work is done on pulling germanium single crystals of germanium — and that you indicated that you had trouble generating any excitement.
+
<p>I am sure I told Williams what I was doing. I do not think they would work on heavy hydrogen just because somebody else thought it was interesting not at that time. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, definitely!
+
<p>See, what I am getting at is later on, I know that you suggested a number of times that work is done on pulling germanium — single crystals of germanium — and that you indicated that you had trouble generating any excitement. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
So, I am trying to understand how you got through it.
+
<p>Yes, definitely! </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I mean, Shockley didn't get enthusiastic about it at all. I do not know whether you have read that or not, but I thought I would give you that.
+
<p>So, I am trying to understand how you got through it. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Yes, I have this article. So that's what I'm trying to understand, what the procedure was for the suggestion of different research projects or how ideas flowed from the research scientist up or down.
+
<p>I mean, [[William Shockley|Shockley]] didn't get enthusiastic about it at all. I do not know whether you have read that or not, but I thought I would give you that. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It flowed up, and it flowed down. I think the people who did the best type of research originated in individuals. They did not have to be told what to do. That's what they wanted to become, as somebody who could think well enough ahead about the importance of this and that in order to push the envelop on research. Naturally, they wanted to produce papers as well as things and encourage their bosses. From the boss's point of view, then—he would keep putting them on projects where they could work on their own ideas as well as the boss himself.  
+
<p>Yes, I have this article. So that's what I'm trying to understand, what the procedure was for the suggestion of different research projects or how ideas flowed from the research scientist up or down. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did Bell encourage that kind of initiative?
+
<p>It flowed up, and it flowed down. I think the people who did the best type of research originated in individuals. They did not have to be told what to do. That's what they wanted to become, as somebody who could think well enough ahead about the importance of this and that in order to push the envelop on research. Naturally, they wanted to produce papers as well as things and encourage their bosses. From the boss's point of view, then—he would keep putting them on projects where they could work on their own ideas as well as the boss himself. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Sure. Did not always mean that it would have turned out that way because maybe they judged what they were working on or what they might be working on differently in importance.
+
<p>Did Bell encourage that kind of initiative? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
How was that done? Would Williams come over and ask somebody what he wanted to work on?
+
<p>Sure. Did not always mean that it would have turned out that way because maybe they judged what they were working on or what they might be working on differently in importance. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>How was that done? Would Williams come over and ask somebody what he wanted to work on? </p>
  
==== Early Work on Television ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
You were working throughout the 'thirties primarily on television, right?
+
==== Early Work on Television  ====
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I worked on television, yes. And I was transferred from the Chemistry Department about my second year, I think. I was transferred over to work with Herbert Ives on television, in his department.
+
<p>You were working throughout the 'thirties primarily on television, right? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Which department was that?
+
<p>I worked on television, yes. And I was transferred from the Chemistry Department about my second year, I think. I was transferred over to work with Herbert Ives on television, in his department. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
The Television Department.
+
<p>Which department was that? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
They had their own department?
+
<p>The Television Department. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>They had their own department? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
This happened in your second year. So, that might have been in '32 or '33?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, I think so.  
+
<p>This happened in your second year. So, that might have been in '32 or '33? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Can you recall if Ives's department was run differently than Williams's department?
+
<p>Yes, I think so. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. It was completely different because the work was completely different. They produced pictures, and they produced television by various means. I worked on television tubes. It also had a whole different group of people with different talents. I got to working in that department because I helped to purify mercuric iodide for one of the men who had a project that had involved him in working with mercuric iodide.
+
<p>Can you recall if Ives's department was run differently than Williams's department? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Somebody working in television that had a need for mercuric iodide approached you, a chemist, and asked you to produce it and then brought you into the television project?
+
<p>Yes. It was completely different because the work was completely different. They produced pictures, and they produced television by various means. I worked on television tubes. It also had a whole different group of people with different talents. I got to working in that department because I helped to purify mercuric iodide for one of the men who had a project that had involved him in working with mercuric iodide. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It was a matter of purifying it for him, so I purified it.
+
<p>Somebody working in television that had a need for mercuric iodide approached you, a chemist, and asked you to produce it and then brought you into the television project? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You began working on television then. And this is interesting because in your lab notebooks I can see that you became very involved in the design of the tubes, in the placement of the tubes in circuits, things that I wouldn't call chemistry. I was wondering how you gained expertise in electrical engineering. Was that just through experience?
+
<p>It was a matter of purifying it for him, so I purified it. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes, I guess that was the case.
+
<p>You began working on television then. And this is interesting because in your lab notebooks I can see that you became very involved in the design of the tubes, in the placement of the tubes in circuits, things that I wouldn't call chemistry. I was wondering how you gained expertise in electrical engineering. Was that just through experience? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you take courses in engineering, or did you just pick it up as you worked?
+
<p>Yes, I guess that was the case. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I picked it up. I didn't really get involved in studying engineering. I worked on so many engineering problems that I picked up important points about it and gradually became more and more proficient.
+
<p>Did you take courses in engineering, or did you just pick it up as you worked? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
How did you find engineering in comparison with chemistry? Did you have a preference?
+
<p>I picked it up. I didn't really get involved in studying engineering. I worked on so many engineering problems that I picked up important points about it and gradually became more and more proficient. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I wanted to have expertise in whatever I was working with, and I picked it up in connection with certain problems and gradually did develop some aptitude.
+
<p>How did you find engineering in comparison with chemistry? Did you have a preference? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Were you excited about being in the competition to develop a TV system? In competition, say, with RCA or the other laboratories working on it?
+
<p>I wanted to have expertise in whatever I was working with, and I picked it up in connection with certain problems and gradually did develop some aptitude. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. We were very interested in doing things that RCA didn't seem to be able to do.
+
<p>Were you excited about being in the competition to develop a TV system? In competition, say, with RCA or the other laboratories working on it? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
While working on TV, you had a lot of patents. And I noticed that you filed for patents for electron multipliers, for mosaics. How did that work? I notice in your lab notebooks that occasionally you would write that you would have a meeting with somebody — a Mr. Wiley, something like that — from the Patent Department.
+
<p>Yes. We were very interested in doing things that RCA didn't seem to be able to do. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I'm sure that I've got the people in the Patent Department — their names — written down in various places.
+
<p>While working on TV, you had a lot of patents. And I noticed that you filed for patents for electron multipliers, for mosaics. How did that work? I notice in your lab notebooks that occasionally you would write that you would have a meeting with somebody — a Mr. Wiley, something like that — from the Patent Department. </p>
  
==== Bell Patent Department ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I'm sure that I've got the people in the Patent Department — their names — written down in various places. </p>
  
I don't even know much about the Patent Department. How would it work?
+
==== Bell Patent Department ====
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Sure. If I thought it was new, then I'd discuss it with the Patent people. That’s pretty much how it worked.
+
<p>I don't even know much about the Patent Department. How would it work? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Were the scientists encouraged to take out patents when they got it?
+
<p>Sure. If I thought it was new, then I'd discuss it with the Patent people. That’s pretty much how it worked. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Well, I got 64 patents all told in the U.S. and a number of other countries.
+
<p>Were the scientists encouraged to take out patents when they got it? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Were you encouraged to patent everything you could? What was the feeling of the Lab?
+
<p>Well, I got 64 patents all told in the U.S. and a number of other countries. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
If they thought it was likely to be used and opened up a whole new area of development, they definitely would feel it was worthwhile to patent it. Because if you didn't patent it other people would.
+
<p>Were you encouraged to patent everything you could? What was the feeling of the Lab? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
The patents, I noticed, for you are made out for Gordon Teal, and then there's the signer, Bell Labs. What did that mean?
+
<p>If they thought it was likely to be used and opened up a whole new area of development, they definitely would feel it was worthwhile to patent it. Because if you didn't patent it other people would. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Well, you mean "the signer"?
+
<p>The patents, I noticed, for you are made out for Gordon Teal, and then there's the signer, Bell Labs. What did that mean? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Was the patent yours, or was it Bell Labs'?
+
<p>Well, you mean "the signer"? </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
It was Bell Labs', and they didn't pay you for patents because you were there working in the Laboratories and that's why you were there working. They did try to make it worthwhile in a salary however, even though ours were modest compared to other places.
+
<p>Was the patent yours, or was it Bell Labs'? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Like RCA?
+
<p>It was Bell Labs', and they didn't pay you for patents because you were there working in the Laboratories and that's why you were there working. They did try to make it worthwhile in a salary however, even though ours were modest compared to other places. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Perhaps RCA. I don't know specifically whether RCA would be one, but they may have. And it varied with the particular thing that you were patenting as to how much interest they would have in it.
+
<p>Like RCA? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Looking at your lab notebooks, it seems that you were working on TV systems until 1942, up until the war began. And then shortly after the war began in February of '42, you were reassigned. Do you remember much about that, that time? How Bell Labs reacted to the war?
+
<p>Perhaps RCA. I don't know specifically whether RCA would be one, but they may have. And it varied with the particular thing that you were patenting as to how much interest they would have in it. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
That's a hard question to answer because it's such a complex thing to say how Bell Labs acted. I mean, you've got several thousand people there.
+
<p>Looking at your lab notebooks, it seems that you were working on TV systems until 1942, up until the war began. And then shortly after the war began in February of '42, you were reassigned. Do you remember much about that, that time? How Bell Labs reacted to the war? </p>
  
==== Attenuators ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>That's a hard question to answer because it's such a complex thing to say how Bell Labs acted. I mean, you've got several thousand people there. </p>
  
I think that you started working on attenuators.
+
==== Attenuators  ====
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. That was a useful project that I worked on. I could give you a paper that I wrote on attenuators.
+
<p>I think that you started working on attenuators. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did people would come to you like the military might have come to you and ask for a particular component?
+
<p>Yes. That was a useful project that I worked on. I could give you a paper that I wrote on attenuators. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
They had certain projects where they needed attenuators. I knew about materials to be able to help them and tackle certain projects that just came to me as being something that I could do in that attenuator business.
+
<p>Did people would come to you like the military might have come to you and ask for a particular component? </p>
  
==== Purifying Germanium ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>They had certain projects where they needed attenuators. I knew about materials to be able to help them and tackle certain projects that just came to me as being something that I could do in that attenuator business. </p>
  
Yes. Well, after the war you continued to work on semiconductors and rectifiers. And then afterwards you started to work on varistors, also made of semiconductors. Did this lead to your work on purifying germanium?
+
==== Purifying Germanium  ====
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I got a good deal of encouragement in the possibilities of high-purity by having worked on the vacuum tubes prior to working on semiconductors. And of course they went to a high vacuum. Going to high vacuum developed a lot of improvements.
+
<p>Yes. Well, after the war you continued to work on semiconductors and rectifiers. And then afterwards you started to work on varistors, also made of [[Semiconductors|semiconductors]]. Did this lead to your work on purifying germanium? </p>
  
Here is what I wrote concerning the subject: "With the previously discussed materials and devices background and detailed knowledge from extensive reading of earlier research papers, as well as more recent ones—that is, 1925 to 1933, Irving Langmuir, G.E. Company, and Harold D. Arnold, Bell Telephone Laboratories—and of articles concerning the long court fight waged between G.E. and Bell over G.E. patenting of a ultra-high vacuum in a vacuum tube, I was impressed by the tremendous impact of ultra-high vacuum. [Not only was I impressed] with the beneficial operating characteristics and practicality of vacuum tubes, but also by its ability to simplify the interaction of the functioning of a design, thereby enhancing the designability of vacuum tubes to perform specific functions.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
"Personal experience with gassy photo tubes, electron multipliers and pick-up devices made me especially conscious of the difficulties of relating theoretically-expected and actual electron ballistics in a vacuum tube device. [Ones] in which there might be present an unspecified number of unknown and unexpected electrical carriers in addition to the anticipated electrons. Such a situation could easily thwart the development of the science of a solid-state electronic device and realization of its maximum potentialities.  
+
<p><flashmp3>136 - teal - clip 1.mp3</flashmp3></p>
  
"The transistor invention at Bell Labs in late '47 convinced me that this was definitely the time to get back on germanium work, in spite of my important, challenging assignment of handling the chemical development of a silicon carbide varistor for a new telephone handset. My most enthusiastic thoughts were on the potential of germanium and what I might do about it. I reasoned that removing the crystal boundaries and other undesirable defects from the germanium would probably be as important to the transistor as removing the last traces of gasses from the vacuum tube. While I continued my assigned work on silicon carbide varistors for the telephone handset, I was determined also to get back into germanium research. Nothing that occurred to me seemed to have the potentialities as important as those of high-purity, high-perfection, single crystals of germanium."
+
<p>I got a good deal of encouragement in the possibilities of high-purity by having worked on the [[Electron (or Vacuum) Tubes|vacuum tubes]] prior to working on semiconductors. And of course they went to a high vacuum. Going to high vacuum developed a lot of improvements. </p>
  
Well, that's the gist of why it was so damned important to me. I've just said this: "Nothing that occurred to me seemed to have the potentialities as important as those of high-purity, high-perfection, single-crystal germanium." A number of times over the years after I had had as one of my early jobs making single crystals for mercuric iodide solutions, I had thought that it would be interesting to pull a single crystal of germanium, but I had never had an adequate reason to do so. This gave me the chance. The method intrigued me not only because I thought it would be interesting to pull a single crystal of germanium, but because it was not a method in use at the time — nor one tagged as a metallurgical method that I would have to yield to someone else as their method.  
+
<p>Here is what I wrote concerning the subject: "With the previously discussed materials and devices background and detailed knowledge from extensive reading of earlier research papers, as well as more recent ones—that is, 1925 to 1933, [[Irving Langmuir|Irving Langmuir]], [[General Electric (GE)|G.E. Company]], and Harold D. Arnold, [[Bell Labs|Bell Telephone Laboratories]]—and of articles concerning the long court fight waged between G.E. and Bell over G.E. patenting of a ultra-high vacuum in a vacuum tube, I was impressed by the tremendous impact of ultra-high vacuum. [Not only was I impressed] with the beneficial operating characteristics and practicality of vacuum tubes, but also by its ability to simplify the interaction of the functioning of a design, thereby enhancing the designability of vacuum tubes to perform specific functions. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>"Personal experience with gassy photo tubes, electron multipliers and pick-up devices made me especially conscious of the difficulties of relating theoretically-expected and actual electron ballistics in a vacuum tube device. [Ones] in which there might be present an unspecified number of unknown and unexpected electrical carriers in addition to the anticipated electrons. Such a situation could easily thwart the development of the science of a solid-state electronic device and realization of its maximum potentialities. </p>
  
You say that now you had a reason to do it, was that because you were talking with Little, that work that he was doing?
+
<p>"The transistor invention at Bell Labs in late '47 convinced me that this was definitely the time to get back on germanium work, in spite of my important, challenging assignment of handling the chemical development of a silicon carbide varistor for a new telephone handset. My most enthusiastic thoughts were on the potential of germanium and what I might do about it. I reasoned that removing the crystal boundaries and other undesirable defects from the germanium would probably be as important to the transistor as removing the last traces of gasses from the vacuum tube. While I continued my assigned work on silicon carbide varistors for the telephone handset, I was determined also to get back into germanium research. Nothing that occurred to me seemed to have the potentialities as important as those of high-purity, high-perfection, single crystals of germanium." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Well, that's the gist of why it was so damned important to me. I've just said this: "Nothing that occurred to me seemed to have the potentialities as important as those of high-purity, high-perfection, single-crystal germanium." A number of times over the years after I had had as one of my early jobs making single crystals for mercuric iodide solutions, I had thought that it would be interesting to pull a single crystal of germanium, but I had never had an adequate reason to do so. This gave me the chance. The method intrigued me not only because I thought it would be interesting to pull a single crystal of germanium, but because it was not a method in use at the time — nor one tagged as a metallurgical method that I would have to yield to someone else as their method. </p>
  
Yes. I wrote on the issue: "Late one afternoon around quitting time, I encountered John Little, and we got to talking about our work. He started by telling me how he needed a germanium rod small enough in diameter to be cut by a very small wheel in order to minimize waste. I could see that here was an opportunity to make a rod for someone who had a real job to do.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
As we were getting on the bus for Summit, New Jersey, I said, "Sure, I can make you a rod by pulling one out of a germanium melt. And, incidentally, it will be a single crystal, too." As soon as we got on the bus, we started sketching. All we needed was something that would pull the rod out smoothly and would withstand the heat.
+
<p>You say that now you had a reason to do it, was that because you were talking with Little, that work that he was doing? </p>
  
A graphite crucible seemed a suitable vessel in which to melt some germanium, and a clock mechanism would serve to smoothly lift the rod from the surface of the melt. John made a bell jar about 30 inches high, which was part of a large high-frequency heater he used for testing experimental vacuum tube parts. The high-frequency heater coil was well up inside the bell jar. This was filled with hydrogen introduced at the top and the excess flowed out the bottom and into the ventilating system of the room. The flow of excess was adjusted sufficiently high to keep oxygen or other contaminating gas away from the heated crucible and rod above the crucible. This would suffice for growing crystals within a hydrogen atmosphere.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
By the end of the three-mile ride into Summit, we had sketched the equipment, and two days later, on October 1, 1948 we completed our crude machine in John's New York City lab. There we pulled our first single crystals of germanium. We did this without getting anyone's permission or approval and acted only on our own personal ideas. Most of the simple handling and measurement on these crystals were made by two college men who were moving through the various parts of the Bell Lab to learn about the Labs as a whole before settling down to a specific job in a specific department. These two men were electrical engineers. I couldn't afford to spend much of my regular time on the single crystals since I was expected by my department to devote the major part of my time to my officially-assigned job on chemical aspects of silicon carbide varistors for new telephone handsets.  
+
<p>Yes. I wrote on the issue: "Late one afternoon around quitting time, I encountered John Little, and we got to talking about our work. He started by telling me how he needed a germanium rod small enough in diameter to be cut by a very small wheel in order to minimize waste. I could see that here was an opportunity to make a rod for someone who had a real job to do. </p>
  
"About two months after John Little and I made our first germanium crystals, in December 1948, I went to Jack Morton and suggested that a single-crystal program on germanium and silicon be set up. I spelled out the various details of the program and asked him to supply some funds for John Little and me to get the program started by first building a small duplicate bell jar-type of puller equipment that could be set up in my laboratory on the third floor of Building 1 in Murray Hill. My main justification for the program that I was suggesting was to supply a more uniform semiconducting material for large-scale manufacture. Jack, in agreeing to pay for the construction of the equipment, said, "Gordon, you will get the scientific credit for this." I interpreted this as his acknowledgment at that time that I was providing by my recent growth of germanium single crystals and my personal suggestions, a likely solution to one of his major problems — lack of a uniform semiconducting material for large-scale manufacture of devices."
+
<p>As we were getting on the bus for Summit, New Jersey, I said, "Sure, I can make you a rod by pulling one out of a germanium melt. And, incidentally, it will be a single crystal, too." As soon as we got on the bus, we started sketching. All we needed was something that would pull the rod out smoothly and would withstand the heat. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>A graphite crucible seemed a suitable vessel in which to melt some germanium, and a clock mechanism would serve to smoothly lift the rod from the surface of the melt. John made a bell jar about 30 inches high, which was part of a large high-frequency heater he used for testing experimental vacuum tube parts. The high-frequency heater coil was well up inside the bell jar. This was filled with hydrogen introduced at the top and the excess flowed out the bottom and into the ventilating system of the room. The flow of excess was adjusted sufficiently high to keep oxygen or other contaminating gas away from the heated crucible and rod above the crucible. This would suffice for growing crystals within a hydrogen atmosphere. </p>
  
What devices were they manufacturing?
+
<p>By the end of the three-mile ride into Summit, we had sketched the equipment, and two days later, on October 1, 1948 we completed our crude machine in John's New York City lab. There we pulled our first single crystals of germanium. We did this without getting anyone's permission or approval and acted only on our own personal ideas. Most of the simple handling and measurement on these crystals were made by two college men who were moving through the various parts of the Bell Lab to learn about the Labs as a whole before settling down to a specific job in a specific department. These two men were electrical engineers. I couldn't afford to spend much of my regular time on the single crystals since I was expected by my department to devote the major part of my time to my officially-assigned job on chemical aspects of silicon carbide varistors for new telephone handsets. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>"About two months after John Little and I made our first germanium crystals, in December 1948, I went to Jack Morton and suggested that a single-crystal program on germanium and silicon be set up. I spelled out the various details of the program and asked him to supply some funds for John Little and me to get the program started by first building a small duplicate bell jar-type of puller equipment that could be set up in my laboratory on the third floor of Building 1 in Murray Hill. My main justification for the program that I was suggesting was to supply a more uniform semiconducting material for large-scale manufacture. Jack, in agreeing to pay for the construction of the equipment, said, "Gordon, you will get the scientific credit for this." I interpreted this as his acknowledgment at that time that I was providing by my recent growth of germanium single crystals and my personal suggestions, a likely solution to one of his major problems — lack of a uniform semiconducting material for large-scale manufacture of devices." </p>
  
I guess one thing it would be rectifiers, point-contact rectifiers, and things of that nature.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What devices were they manufacturing? </p>
  
For use in telephones in what sort of systems? Telephones, radar, or radios?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I guess one thing it would be rectifiers, point-contact rectifiers, and things of that nature. </p>
  
Probably, let's see: "However, my interest in single crystals of germanium and silicon was much broader than meeting needs of manufactured devices, important as that is. I was enthusiastic about single crystals of germanium and silicon, both for research and development, as well, and the possibility that they might influence fundamentally the design of new and experimental devices and enlarge the science surrounding new devices. When it was found by measurement of injected minority carriers by Haynes that our materials with large single-crystal volumes in them have minority carrier lifetimes 20 to 100 times greater than for polycrystal germanium materials, interest in the single-crystal material picked up. While some of the scientists were interested in these crystals in connection with transistor studies, most of my associates continued to believe that single crystals were of only limited scientific importance and would never be of any major use in devices that had to be produced on a large scale."
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>For use in [[Telephone|telephones]] in what sort of systems? Telephones, [[Radar|radar]], or [[Radio|radios]]? </p>
  
Now who is Haynes? How did he get involved with this?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
==== '''Shockley''' ====
+
<p>Probably, let's see: "However, my interest in single crystals of germanium and silicon was much broader than meeting needs of manufactured devices, important as that is. I was enthusiastic about single crystals of germanium and silicon, both for research and development, as well, and the possibility that they might influence fundamentally the design of new and experimental devices and enlarge the science surrounding new devices. When it was found by measurement of injected minority carriers by Haynes that our materials with large single-crystal volumes in them have minority carrier lifetimes 20 to 100 times greater than for polycrystal germanium materials, interest in the single-crystal material picked up. While some of the scientists were interested in these crystals in connection with transistor studies, most of my associates continued to believe that single crystals were of only limited scientific importance and would never be of any major use in devices that had to be produced on a large scale." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Haynes was an experimental man who worked for Shockley; he reported to Shockley.
+
<p>Now who is Haynes? How did he get involved with this? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
==== '''Shockley''' ====
  
What was Shockley's position then?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Haynes was an experimental man who worked for [[William Shockley|Shockley]]; he reported to Shockley. </p>
  
He was head of his group. He and Stanley Morgan were head of the Solid-State Group, and the Solid-State Group was set up by M.J. Kelley who was the Director of the Laboratory.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What was Shockley's position then? </p>
  
So you wanted to produce the pure crystals of germanium to serve as better rectifiers?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>He was head of his group. He and Stanley Morgan were head of the Solid-State Group, and the Solid-State Group was set up by M.J. Kelley who was the Director of the Laboratory. </p>
  
When they discovered the transistor it looked to me as if they were going to have problems with things happening between grain boundaries, and this was uncontrolled.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So you wanted to produce the pure crystals of germanium to serve as better rectifiers? </p>
  
Did you have some idea of the solid-state physics?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>When they discovered the [[Transistors|transistor]] it looked to me as if they were going to have problems with things happening between grain boundaries, and this was uncontrolled. </p>
  
I wasn't an expert on it, but I knew what was happening.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did you have some idea of the solid-state physics? </p>
  
Was this an analogy to gas in the vacuum tubes? Is that what you were saying?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I wasn't an expert on it, but I knew what was happening. </p>
  
Yes. Better vacuums in the tubes enabled them to do things that you couldn't do when you didn't control the vacuum.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was this an analogy to gas in the vacuum tubes? Is that what you were saying? </p>
  
Likewise, grain boundaries would cause trouble?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. Better vacuums in the tubes enabled them to do things that you couldn't do when you didn't control the vacuum. </p>
  
Yes, and Shockley dismissed the idea. It took quite a while for Bill to accept the importance of doing some of these things.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Likewise, grain boundaries would cause trouble? </p>
  
Why was he stubborn about it? Did he have different ideas about what was going on?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, and Shockley dismissed the idea. It took quite a while for Bill to accept the importance of doing some of these things. </p>
  
Bill seemed to think you could pick out a crystal to work with, and that was a complete lack of control.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Why was he stubborn about it? Did he have different ideas about what was going on? </p>
  
You mean, in a polycrystal?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Bill seemed to think you could pick out a crystal to work with, and that was a complete lack of control. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You mean, in a polycrystal? </p>
  
Did you just make your junctions thereafter?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
If you were careless about doing your thinking, you could hope that the single crystal might be large enough to accomplish what you wanted to accomplish with electrons and holes. But the fact that Haynes found that the minority carriers lifetimes were 20 to 100 times greater than polycrystal in germanium materials, caused the interest in single-crystal material to pick up.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did you just make your junctions thereafter? </p>
  
Did Shockley have many people on his side?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>If you were careless about doing your thinking, you could hope that the single crystal might be large enough to accomplish what you wanted to accomplish with electrons and holes. But the fact that Haynes found that the minority carriers lifetimes were 20 to 100 times greater than polycrystal in germanium materials, caused the interest in single-crystal material to pick up. </p>
  
He was head of that group and a talented guy. I knew Shockley before he came to Bell Labs.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did Shockley have many people on his side? </p>
  
How did you come to know him?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>He was head of that group and a talented guy. I knew Shockley before he came to Bell Labs. </p>
  
I met him up at MIT.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How did you come to know him? </p>
  
It sounds like he wasn't all that open-minded? Is that accurate?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I met him up at MIT. </p>
  
He wasn't convinced of what I said to him. He finally did become convinced and said things that indicate the importance of his position.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I'm trying to remember exactly where. I think I have it here: "Shockley in November 1952 in the transistor issue of the Proceedings of IRE, ‘Transistor Electronics: Imperfections, Unipolar and Analog Transistors,’ Proceedings of the IRE, Volume 40, said: ‘Teal and Little undertook a program of growing large crystals of germanium. These single crystals, weighing up to several hundred grams, have the same orientation throughout, and no grain boundaries. For the last several years practically all advances at Bell Telephone Laboratories in transistor electronics and transistor physics have been based on the availability of single-crystal material.’" I think that's a pretty important statement. He's finally convinced.
+
<p>It sounds like he wasn't all that open-minded? Is that accurate? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Do you remember where this is from?
+
<p>He wasn't convinced of what I said to him. He finally did become convinced and said things that indicate the importance of his position. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I'm trying to remember exactly where. I think I have it here: "Shockley in November 1952 in the transistor issue of the Proceedings of IRE, ‘Transistor Electronics: Imperfections, Unipolar and Analog Transistors,’ Proceedings of the IRE, Volume 40, said: ‘Teal and Little undertook a program of growing large crystals of germanium. These single crystals, weighing up to several hundred grams, have the same orientation throughout, and no grain boundaries. For the last several years practically all advances at Bell Telephone Laboratories in transistor electronics and transistor physics have been based on the availability of single-crystal material.’" I think that's a pretty important statement. He's finally convinced. </p>
  
This was in the IRE of November 1952 which was several years after we had done that work.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Do you remember where this is from? </p>
  
Was that a hard struggle to convince them?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>This was in the IRE of November 1952 which was several years after we had done that work. </p>
  
Yes!
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was that a hard struggle to convince them? </p>
  
Did Haynes's idea work? Or did it take other results?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes! </p>
  
He didn't jump at it for several years. He kept working and wasting his time on the polycrystalline material. It was amazing that such a brilliant guy would waste so much time, but it was a hard thing for him to realize it.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
In December 1955 G.L. Pearson and Walter Brattain wrote of semiconductor research in the Proceedings of IRE, in December 1955: "During this time various improvements were being made in semiconductor materials. A big step forward was taken when G.K. Teal and J.B. Little succeeded in growing single crystals of germanium. Sometime later single crystals of silicon were also obtained by G.K. Teal and E. Buhler. In all of this work, steps were continually being taken to produce even more perfect crystals, both as to lattice perfection and degree of chemical purity. We are getting close to the forefront that the perspective is insufficient to give a good general picture. It can certainly be said, however, that the availability of such pure and perfect single crystals as we have in present-day silicon and germanium amounts to a major revolution in the physics of solids. New phenomena are turning up all around us." That's quite a lot of praise particularly when they both worked for Shockley.
+
<p>Did Haynes's idea work? Or did it take other results? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You said that Shockley wasn't convinced, and he was head of the Solid-State Department. Even though he wasn't convinced, you were still able to gain support from Bell Labs to continue your work? Who did you talk to? How did you manage to — ?
+
<p>He didn't jump at it for several years. He kept working and wasting his time on the polycrystalline material. It was amazing that such a brilliant guy would waste so much time, but it was a hard thing for him to realize it. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>In December 1955 G.L. Pearson and [[Walter H. Brattain|Walter Brattain]] wrote of semiconductor research in the Proceedings of IRE, in December 1955: "During this time various improvements were being made in semiconductor materials. A big step forward was taken when G.K. Teal and J.B. Little succeeded in growing single crystals of germanium. Sometime later single crystals of silicon were also obtained by G.K. Teal and E. Buhler. In all of this work, steps were continually being taken to produce even more perfect crystals, both as to lattice perfection and degree of chemical purity. We are getting close to the forefront that the perspective is insufficient to give a good general picture. It can certainly be said, however, that the availability of such pure and perfect single crystals as we have in present-day silicon and germanium amounts to a major revolution in the physics of solids. New phenomena are turning up all around us." That's quite a lot of praise particularly when they both worked for Shockley. </p>
  
That was pretty involved over a long period, and it would be hard to remember all those things that I did or who I talked with that may have influenced the final decision. I think that Shockley finally owned up to being mistaken. He didn’t acknowledge his fault openly, but he did make it known.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You said that Shockley wasn't convinced, and he was head of the Solid-State Department. Even though he wasn't convinced, you were still able to gain support from Bell Labs to continue your work? Who did you talk to? How did you manage to —&nbsp;? </p>
  
Was that a hard thing for him to do? Was he pretty self-assured?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>That was pretty involved over a long period, and it would be hard to remember all those things that I did or who I talked with that may have influenced the final decision. I think that Shockley finally owned up to being mistaken. He didn’t acknowledge his fault openly, but he did make it known. </p>
  
Sure. He had quite an ego.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was that a hard thing for him to do? Was he pretty self-assured? </p>
  
Was there any personal tension between the two of you?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Sure. He had quite an ego. </p>
  
No.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was there any personal tension between the two of you? </p>
  
It was all just professional?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No. </p>
  
Yes. I knew Shockley pretty well. When he first came to Bell in 1936 we visited from time to time. My wife and I were very fond of Shockley's first wife. My wife took care of their little girl when the girl's mother couldn't be at home to do so. Maybe she had to do some shopping or something like that. We lived in a place on 14th Street, several blocks away from Bell Labs itself. I remember one of the Christmases we had dinner at their home. Nobody else there. We were their guests.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>It was all just professional? </p>
  
Two couples?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. I knew Shockley pretty well. When he first came to Bell in 1936 we visited from time to time. My wife and I were very fond of Shockley's first wife. My wife took care of their little girl when the girl's mother couldn't be at home to do so. Maybe she had to do some shopping or something like that. We lived in a place on 14th Street, several blocks away from Bell Labs itself. I remember one of the Christmases we had dinner at their home. Nobody else there. We were their guests. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Two couples? </p>
  
Yes. You two couples having Christmas dinner?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
This is another thing that I can quote. In Shockley's Chapter 7, "Transistors," on page 148 of the book, The Age of Electronics: Lincoln Laboratories Decennial Lectures , (McGraw-Hill: New York, 1962) edited by Carl F.J. Overhage, he writes: "There was probably no more important scientific development in the semiconductor field in the early days following the announcement of the transistor, than the development of high-quality, single crystals of germanium at Bell Telephone Laboratories." That's quite an acknowledgment.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== Single Crystals of Germanium ====
+
<p>Yes. You two couples having Christmas dinner? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
How did your ideas sit with Brattain or Bardeen? Were they more receptive to the idea of single crystals being important?
+
<p>This is another thing that I can quote. In Shockley's Chapter 7, "Transistors," on page 148 of the book, The Age of Electronics: Lincoln Laboratories Decennial Lectures , (McGraw-Hill: New York, 1962) edited by Carl F.J. Overhage, he writes: "There was probably no more important scientific development in the semiconductor field in the early days following the announcement of the transistor, than the development of high-quality, single crystals of germanium at Bell Telephone Laboratories." That's quite an acknowledgment. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Single Crystals of Germanium  ====
  
Yes, but it took a long time.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How did your ideas sit with [[Walter H. Brattain|Brattain]] or [[John Bardeen|Bardeen]]? Were they more receptive to the idea of single crystals being important? </p>
  
You were describing your apparatus to pull the single crystals. The way you described it there, it all sounds pretty straightforward. Was it like that? Or were there technical challenges, particular difficulties, you had to overcome? You had the graphite crucible. Did you have to experiment with many different materials?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, but it took a long time. </p>
  
Yes, I thought about it, and it was the best thing we knew of.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You were describing your apparatus to pull the single crystals. The way you described it there, it all sounds pretty straightforward. Was it like that? Or were there technical challenges, particular difficulties, you had to overcome? You had the graphite crucible. Did you have to experiment with many different materials? </p>
  
So you got it on the first shot, the first try?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, I thought about it, and it was the best thing we knew of. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So you got it on the first shot, the first try? </p>
  
How did Little contribute in there?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
He was helping Jack Morton in connection with his production of electronic devices. He wasn't really an expert in solid-state physics or anything like that.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How did Little contribute in there? </p>
  
Now when you first had the idea that single crystals of germanium would be more effective, more like high-vacuum vacuum tubes, that was before the transistor was developed. Were you thinking of a specific application?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>He was helping Jack Morton in connection with his production of electronic devices. He wasn't really an expert in solid-state physics or anything like that. </p>
  
Single crystals had been made before, but they were the things that been worked on by the guy who did that work. They used for things like sodium chloride.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Now when you first had the idea that single crystals of germanium would be more effective, more like high-vacuum vacuum tubes, that was before the transistor was developed. Were you thinking of a specific application? </p>
  
Why was it harder to do germanium?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Single crystals had been made before, but they were the things that been worked on by the guy who did that work. They used for things like sodium chloride. </p>
  
I came across it when I was working, trying to make a single crystal of mercuric iodide. I got familiar at the time with things that I didn't normally work on. Problems not like the other problems I had tackled. Then I was in the Television Group at the time that I learned quite a bit about solids during that period. But I worked on not only solids, but vacuum tubes as well.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== Electron Multipliers ====
+
<p>Why was it harder to do germanium? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
In your writings you mentioned electron multipliers, which I noticed you worked with a lot when you where with TV. Could you tell me what the electron multiplier is?
+
<p>I came across it when I was working, trying to make a single crystal of mercuric iodide. I got familiar at the time with things that I didn't normally work on. Problems not like the other problems I had tackled. Then I was in the Television Group at the time that I learned quite a bit about solids during that period. But I worked on not only solids, but vacuum tubes as well. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Electron Multipliers  ====
  
You have electron emitters, and if you spew electrons against this in a vacuum tube you get high-speed electrons. Or, you could just shine light in to get this effect. You have these emitters, and you shine light on something, on one of these that gave a photo-electron emitted. Then this would knock secondary electrons out. And at each stage of this process you build up the amount of electricity in the vacuum so you finally get down to here. By that time it would be multiplied a lot, and thus you have the electron multiplier.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>In your writings you mentioned electron multipliers, which I noticed you worked with a lot when you where with TV. Could you tell me what the electron multiplier is? </p>
  
The light is incident on the photosensitive material, and the photons ejected are called the secondary?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>You have electron emitters, and if you spew electrons against this in a vacuum tube you get high-speed electrons. Or, you could just shine light in to get this effect. You have these emitters, and you shine light on something, on one of these that gave a photo-electron emitted. Then this would knock secondary electrons out. And at each stage of this process you build up the amount of electricity in the vacuum so you finally get down to here. By that time it would be multiplied a lot, and thus you have the electron multiplier. </p>
  
Yes, secondary electrons.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>The light is incident on the photosensitive material, and the photons ejected are called the secondary? </p>
  
Was Bell Labs the only one working on this, or were there other people?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, secondary electrons. </p>
  
No, but I don’t remember what the situation was.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was Bell Labs the only one working on this, or were there other people? </p>
  
Was this important in the iconoscope, in the camera tube, as a way of getting the incident light up to adequate signal strength?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No, but I don’t remember what the situation was. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was this important in the [[Iconoscope|iconoscope]], in the camera tube, as a way of getting the incident light up to adequate signal strength? </p>
  
Can you recall any of the landmarks in developing these? Any of the particularly tough problems or significant issues you faced?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
We picked up the knowledge that we had available to us at the time and their difficulties. I got patents on several different types of electron multipliers.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Can you recall any of the landmarks in developing these? Any of the particularly tough problems or significant issues you faced? </p>
  
We were also talking about Bell Labs in the late 'forties and early 'fifties when you were having trouble convincing Shockley what you were doing was important. Were you satisfied working with Bell Labs then? Did it bother you that you didn't have the full support of Shockley, the head of the department?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>We picked up the knowledge that we had available to us at the time and their difficulties. I got patents on several different types of electron multipliers. </p>
  
Sure, it bothered me.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>We were also talking about [[Bell Labs|Bell Labs]] in the late 'forties and early 'fifties when you were having trouble convincing [[William Shockley|Shockley]] what you were doing was important. Were you satisfied working with Bell Labs then? Did it bother you that you didn't have the full support of Shockley, the head of the department? </p>
  
Was there anything you could do about it?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Sure, it bothered me. </p>
  
I kept on working on it, regardless of what he thought.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== New Jersey ====
+
<p>Was there anything you could do about it? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
By this time you were working not at Bell Labs in New York but in New Jersey, right?
+
<p>I kept on working on it, regardless of what he thought. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== New Jersey  ====
  
Yes. Texas Instruments.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>By this time you were working not at Bell Labs in New York but in New Jersey, right? </p>
  
No. You come to Texas Instruments in 1953, I mean in 1948 when you were still at Bell Labs. That was the lab in Murray Hill, right? Or, in New Jersey?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. Texas Instruments. </p>
  
I was in New York for a number of years. I think it was about six years or something like that. Then we moved to New Jersey in 1936.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>No. You come to Texas Instruments in 1953, I mean in 1948 when you were still at Bell Labs. That was the lab in Murray Hill, right? Or, in New Jersey? </p>
  
Did that correspond to some change in your responsibilities?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I was in New York for a number of years. I think it was about six years or something like that. Then we moved to New Jersey in 1936. </p>
  
We were distributed differently in the buildings, which in some ways made it more difficult to work together. In other ways we went ahead and managed to work on certain things together.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
=== Texas Instruments ===
+
<p>Did that correspond to some change in your responsibilities? </p>
  
==== Reasons for Going to TI ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>We were distributed differently in the buildings, which in some ways made it more difficult to work together. In other ways we went ahead and managed to work on certain things together. </p>
  
You went to Texas Instruments in 1953?
+
=== Texas Instruments ===
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Reasons for Going to TI  ====
  
The beginning of 1953.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You went to Texas Instruments in 1953? </p>
  
What's the story there? How did you become aware of Texas Instruments?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>The beginning of 1953. </p>
  
The Bell System had—at a certain time of the year—a big meeting where they invited people to come in and hear a series of lectures at Bell on Bell properties. These are companies that were interested in making such things and who would pay a certain price for things that were developed, or manufactured. So we had such a meeting.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
There were about 35 companies who sent people. Pat Haggerty was one of the men who came. He and one or two other people came from Texas Instruments. We met and they thought that since I had been so involved in all of this work I should join them.
+
<p>What's the story there? How did you become aware of Texas Instruments? </p>
  
They had a good story to tell of their background. They had started out at about 1930 with people beginning to get together in a seismic operation. Gradually they built it up. During the World War II they got involved in a few electronic projects for the government. It was electrical engineering, but it offered them an opportunity to build up the electronics into a new field that was being developed at Bell and RCA and certain other companies. So I went.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
They never had a research laboratory before so I was the founder of the TI Research Laboratory and also the person who got the people there to work in the laboratory. Then after they got there, I did my best to keep them working on something that would be a profitable thing for TI to be involved in.  
+
<p>The Bell System had—at a certain time of the year—a big meeting where they invited people to come in and hear a series of lectures at Bell on Bell properties. These are companies that were interested in making such things and who would pay a certain price for things that were developed, or manufactured. So we had such a meeting. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>There were about 35 companies who sent people. [[Patrick E. Haggerty|Pat Haggerty]] was one of the men who came. He and one or two other people came from Texas Instruments. We met and they thought that since I had been so involved in all of this work I should join them. </p>
  
You said in the speech that you gave to the National Achievers that you were excited about the idea of running a laboratory. Was it as exciting as you thought it would be?
+
<p>They had a good story to tell of their background. They had started out at about 1930 with people beginning to get together in a seismic operation. Gradually they built it up. During the World War II they got involved in a few electronic projects for the government. It was electrical engineering, but it offered them an opportunity to build up the electronics into a new field that was being developed at Bell and RCA and certain other companies. So I went. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>They never had a research laboratory before so I was the founder of the TI Research Laboratory and also the person who got the people there to work in the laboratory. Then after they got there, I did my best to keep them working on something that would be a profitable thing for TI to be involved in. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You said in the speech that you gave to the National Achievers that you were excited about the idea of running a laboratory. Was it as exciting as you thought it would be? </p>
  
First let me ask you whom you worked under? Was it Haggerty directly?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
No, I worked under Bob Olsen who was one of the main men working under Haggerty. Olsen had a technical background, engineering background. I reported to Bob Olsen for quite a while.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>First let me ask you whom you worked under? Was it Haggerty directly? </p>
  
Texas Instruments made you this offer to come down and start a research laboratory in 1952. Why did you accept?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No, I worked under Bob Olsen who was one of the main men working under Haggerty. Olsen had a technical background, engineering background. I reported to Bob Olsen for quite a while. </p>
  
Partly because it was my home. It was where my parents and relatives were. So that was certainly worthwhile.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Texas Instruments made you this offer to come down and start a research laboratory in 1952. Why did you accept? </p>
  
I'll just summarize the TI offer, Texas Instruments's offer: This was essentially higher salary, a chance for leadership in a field in which you were interested, a chance to be closer to home.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Partly because it was my home. It was where my parents and relatives were. So that was certainly worthwhile. </p>
  
I think I allowed myself to say something about this: "Because of a very critical family need, I left Bell Labs at the end of 1952 and joined Texas Instruments, Inc., at that time a small, aggressive engineering, electronics and geophysical company in Dallas, Texas, with only 1770 employees. It had shortly prior to that time become a licensee of the Western Electric Company with the aim of going into the transistor business.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I went to Texas Instruments to organize and direct its research in the Central Research Laboratory. My job was to assemble a research staff and to establish the environment for and to direct innovation, in contrast to performing personal invention. I gradually recruited a group of researchers and concentrated our efforts on programs calculated to comprehend and extend the forefront technology and to lead as quickly as possible to important products that would extend the valuable impact on the company.
+
<p>I'll just summarize the TI offer, Texas Instruments's offer: This was essentially higher salary, a chance for leadership in a field in which you were interested, a chance to be closer to home. </p>
  
"Shortly after arriving at TI, I set up a program of silicon crystal growing aimed at producing high-perfection silicon single crystals, p-n junctions and structures to facilitate our development of a silicon transistor with useful amplification properties. I persuaded Dr. Willis A. Adcock, an able young scientist, to leave his catalysis studies in one of the oil industry laboratories and join TI to undertake these crystal-growing investigations, which I believed to be the key to the achievement of a silicon transistor. A reason that going the grown-junction route would avoid the differential expansion difficulties between silicon and an alloying electrode inherent in the use of alloyed junctions. Most companies took the alloy route. Another possible approach was to use the then recently discovered 3-5 compounds. Some scientists at that time were advocating leapfrogging silicon and going to the 3-5 compounds to achieve an even higher temperature capability than potentially available in silicon. Certain companies followed this advice and concentrated on 3-5 intermetallics. I argued that this was the wrong approach because of the added complexity of the 3-5s and because of the superior chemical and physical stability of silicon.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
"Our program succeeded in 1954, and the first commercially-feasible silicon transistor became a reality. In addition to the contributions of Willis Adcock, I should mention those of Dr. Morton Jones, relating to the solution of electrode attachment and of chemical problems and his transfer of the technology to the Semiconductor Products Division. The excellent performance of the crystal grower designed and constructed by Boyd Corneliuson of the Semiconductor Division was an important factor, too — also. The experimental results of the development were published in The Proceedings of the Institute of Radio Engineers by W.A. Adcock, M.E. Jones, J.W. Thornhill and E.D. Jackson.
+
<p>I think I allowed myself to say something about this: "Because of a very critical family need, I left Bell Labs at the end of 1952 and joined Texas Instruments, Inc., at that time a small, aggressive engineering, electronics and geophysical company in Dallas, Texas, with only 1770 employees. It had shortly prior to that time become a licensee of the Western Electric Company with the aim of going into the transistor business. </p>
  
"As director of the research, I announced the achievement at an IRE national conference in Dayton, Ohio on May 10, 1954."
+
<p>I went to Texas Instruments to organize and direct its research in the Central Research Laboratory. My job was to assemble a research staff and to establish the environment for and to direct innovation, in contrast to performing personal invention. I gradually recruited a group of researchers and concentrated our efforts on programs calculated to comprehend and extend the forefront technology and to lead as quickly as possible to important products that would extend the valuable impact on the company. </p>
  
==== Managing the Research Laboratory ====
+
<p>"Shortly after arriving at TI, I set up a program of silicon crystal growing aimed at producing high-perfection silicon single crystals, p-n junctions and structures to facilitate our development of a silicon transistor with useful amplification properties. I persuaded [[Oral-History:Willis Adcock|Dr. Willis A. Adcock]], an able young scientist, to leave his catalysis studies in one of the oil industry laboratories and join TI to undertake these crystal-growing investigations, which I believed to be the key to the achievement of a silicon transistor. A reason that going the grown-junction route would avoid the differential expansion difficulties between silicon and an alloying electrode inherent in the use of alloyed junctions. Most companies took the alloy route. Another possible approach was to use the then recently discovered 3-5 compounds. Some scientists at that time were advocating leapfrogging silicon and going to the 3-5 compounds to achieve an even higher temperature capability than potentially available in silicon. Certain companies followed this advice and concentrated on 3-5 intermetallics. I argued that this was the wrong approach because of the added complexity of the 3-5s and because of the superior chemical and physical stability of silicon. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>"Our program succeeded in 1954, and the first commercially-feasible silicon transistor became a reality. In addition to the contributions of Willis Adcock, I should mention those of Dr. Morton Jones, relating to the solution of electrode attachment and of chemical problems and his transfer of the technology to the Semiconductor Products Division. The excellent performance of the crystal grower designed and constructed by Boyd Corneliuson of the Semiconductor Division was an important factor, too — also. The experimental results of the development were published in The Proceedings of the Institute of Radio Engineers by W.A. Adcock, M.E. Jones, J.W. Thornhill and E.D. Jackson. </p>
  
As director of the research, were you actively involved in the research? Were you in the laboratory on a daily basis working with the other scientists?
+
<p>"As director of the research, I announced the achievement at an IRE national conference in Dayton, Ohio on May 10, 1954." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Managing the Research Laboratory  ====
  
Only to encourage them. Did I give you the proper information at the start?
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>As director of the research, were you actively involved in the research? Were you in the laboratory on a daily basis working with the other scientists? </p>
  
Yes, you did. We were just talking about your move to Texas Instruments in 1953. You were telling me why you moved. One thing I'm curious about is, were you confident that Texas Instruments was a serious company? Did you believe that they had sufficient capital to support a research laboratory and sufficient sales? They were still a small company when they propositioned you.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Only to encourage them. Did I give you the proper information at the start? </p>
  
I thought they were men who had been successful so far. Erik Jonsson, for instance, and McDermott — Eugene McDermott, and Cecil Greene. They had been involved quite early.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I could be wrong about just the exact year when certain ones of them started, but it went back to about 1930. I think the one who started it was a factor in making money, but there was a significant change in the company's make up when they to get into the electronics business. So I didn't really have any dealings with him. The others had been successful, and they are the ones who really made the money from the TI.
+
<p>Yes, you did. We were just talking about your move to Texas Instruments in 1953. You were telling me why you moved. One thing I'm curious about is, were you confident that Texas Instruments was a serious company? Did you believe that they had sufficient capital to support a research laboratory and sufficient sales? They were still a small company when they propositioned you. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
When TI licensed the transistors from Bell, what were they building with them? What were their products at the time?
+
<p>I thought they were men who had been successful so far. Erik Jonsson, for instance, and McDermott — Eugene McDermott, and Cecil Greene. They had been involved quite early. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I could be wrong about just the exact year when certain ones of them started, but it went back to about 1930. I think the one who started it was a factor in making money, but there was a significant change in the company's make up when they to get into the electronics business. So I didn't really have any dealings with him. The others had been successful, and they are the ones who really made the money from the TI. </p>
  
They were only producing electronic devices. Due to that, they did some electrical engineering type of thing in connection with government needs. I believe that's the way it was.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When TI licensed the transistors from Bell, what were they building with them? What were their products at the time? </p>
  
So when you got there, you were responsible for setting up a research laboratory. How did you start?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>They were only producing electronic devices. Due to that, they did some electrical engineering type of thing in connection with government needs. I believe that's the way it was. </p>
  
I just started thinking what shall we do? And who do we need to do it? Then I started looking for men, which included going to a number of outstanding universities that I had already gotten acquainted with during my years in the electronics game.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So when you got there, you were responsible for setting up a research laboratory. How did you start? </p>
  
You were telling me the way you began to set up a research lab. You said you'd known some good men at universities.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I just started thinking what shall we do? And who do we need to do it? Then I started looking for men, which included going to a number of outstanding universities that I had already gotten acquainted with during my years in the electronics game. </p>
  
I'd had contacts with certain people out in various universities. So I went out to talk to some of them — University of California and Stanford and other universities up in New England. I think I went to Chicago and then I went down to Cal Tech.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You were telling me the way you began to set up a research lab. You said you'd known some good men at universities. </p>
  
How about setting up the organizational system? Did you have any models for that?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I'd had contacts with certain people out in various universities. So I went out to talk to some of them — University of California and Stanford and other universities up in New England. I think I went to Chicago and then I went down to Cal Tech. </p>
  
It depended an awful lot on who I hired first. So the first one, in addition to Adcock, was Ross McDonald. I didn't do all the hiring.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How about setting up the organizational system? Did you have any models for that? </p>
  
In drawing up these organizational charts, I wonder if you resolved to correct the mistakes that were done at Bell, and that's how you got your ideas about the organization. Was that the case?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It depended an awful lot on who I hired first. So the first one, in addition to Adcock, was Ross McDonald. I didn't do all the hiring. </p>
  
Bell is such a big organization I don't think that it helped me an awful lot to think about Bell because here we were a completely different place, with people who had worked on something completely different. I just had to think it up. I had to take it gradually enough to be thoughtful about it, but not so gradually that we just wasted a lot of time.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>In drawing up these organizational charts, I wonder if you resolved to correct the mistakes that were done at Bell, and that's how you got your ideas about the organization. Was that the case? </p>
  
Did Texas Instruments build a brand new research laboratory, or did you work in some other building?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Bell is such a big organization I don't think that it helped me an awful lot to think about Bell because here we were a completely different place, with people who had worked on something completely different. I just had to think it up. I had to take it gradually enough to be thoughtful about it, but not so gradually that we just wasted a lot of time. </p>
  
Initially I worked in the building that had been occupied by some of the geophysicists, and that was down on Lemon Avenue. We were down there for several years, part of us at least. Later TI bought property that they later filled up with buildings. A building was then built for us. The building was really for the manufacturing part of the organization.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did Texas Instruments build a brand new research laboratory, or did you work in some other building? </p>
  
When you were first talking with Haggerty about coming, did you let him know what facilities you would need to run a research laboratory? Were there those kinds of negotiations?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Initially I worked in the building that had been occupied by some of the geophysicists, and that was down on Lemon Avenue. We were down there for several years, part of us at least. Later TI bought property that they later filled up with buildings. A building was then built for us. The building was really for the manufacturing part of the organization. </p>
  
I didn't lay down any demands for anything. I think it came up gradually so that as we hired people, we needed more space, then we took over some other space. And in certain cases people in other types of work moved out of certain space and got something that would fit them all right but not us.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When you were first talking with Haggerty about coming, did you let him know what facilities you would need to run a research laboratory? Were there those kinds of negotiations? </p>
  
So it was a redistribution to improve efficiency?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I didn't lay down any demands for anything. I think it came up gradually so that as we hired people, we needed more space, then we took over some other space. And in certain cases people in other types of work moved out of certain space and got something that would fit them all right but not us. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So it was a redistribution to improve efficiency? </p>
  
And that was going on all throughout the 'fifties?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>And that was going on all throughout the 'fifties? </p>
  
The lab has been established now, and you're getting staff and having to make decisions about what to investigate. Did you make those decisions or did they come from above you?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
I made most of them. Things like, what kind of people we needed, to where we should look for them, and how to get them to Dallas to be interviewed.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== Silicon Transistors ====
+
<p>The lab has been established now, and you're getting staff and having to make decisions about what to investigate. Did you make those decisions or did they come from above you? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Soon after you got there is when you succeeded in pulling single crystals of silicon, is that right?
+
<p>I made most of them. Things like, what kind of people we needed, to where we should look for them, and how to get them to Dallas to be interviewed. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Silicon Transistors  ====
  
Within a year and a half, we had a silicon transistor.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Soon after you got there is when you succeeded in pulling single crystals of silicon, is that right? </p>
  
Tell me about how that came to be. What was special about the procedure to create one?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Within a year and a half, we had a silicon transistor. </p>
  
It took just the time necessary to get somebody to help turn my suggestions into pieces of pulling equipment. I gave suggestions to Shepard and one of his men. So they built a crystal puller [correct word !!!!] based on my suggestions and also on looking at crystal pullers that I was using in Bell Labs and had already been using for sometime.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Tell me about how that came to be. What was special about the procedure to create one? </p>
  
And the work that you'd been doing at Bell Labs as far as germanium—it was only on germanium, correct?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It took just the time necessary to get somebody to help turn my suggestions into pieces of pulling equipment. I gave suggestions to Shepard and one of his men. So they built a crystal puller [correct word&nbsp;!!!!] based on my suggestions and also on looking at crystal pullers that I was using in Bell Labs and had already been using for sometime. </p>
  
No. Buhler and I, pulled single crystals of silicon.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>And the work that you'd been doing at Bell Labs as far as germanium—it was only on germanium, correct? </p>
  
Had you developed the apparatus to dope them so that you would get grown-junction transistors?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No. Buhler and I, pulled single crystals of silicon. </p>
  
We hadn't made a transistor yet, but we were right at the point of doing so.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Had you developed the apparatus to dope them so that you would get grown-junction transistors? </p>
  
When you were doing experiments like that, did you consider how these might be manufactured on a large scale? Or was that something that came later?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>We hadn't made a transistor yet, but we were right at the point of doing so. </p>
  
We didn't manufacture crystal pullers for sale or anything like that.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When you were doing experiments like that, did you consider how these might be manufactured on a large scale? Or was that something that came later? </p>
  
I’m talking about the transistors. As you were working on pulling the crystals to make transistors, did you consider the capability of mass production?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>We didn't manufacture crystal pullers for sale or anything like that. </p>
  
We worked with the people at TI who had gone ahead and turned out some crystals before I got there, but under very detailed suggestions as to how they do this. Then we got busy on it when I got there and we got others to help him. So it went along pretty fast.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I’m talking about the transistors. As you were working on pulling the crystals to make transistors, did you consider the capability of mass production? </p>
  
When you say "it," do you mean the research that went into producing transistors?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>We worked with the people at TI who had gone ahead and turned out some crystals before I got there, but under very detailed suggestions as to how they do this. Then we got busy on it when I got there and we got others to help him. So it went along pretty fast. </p>
  
Yes, we produced transistors.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When you say "it," do you mean the research that went into producing transistors? </p>
  
The big innovation seems to be the development of a transistor that you were able to mass market for sale, correct? So was the procedure for that different than the research? There's a difference between developing the first prototype and refining the process for mass production. Or, is there?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, we produced transistors. </p>
  
It was pretty much the same thing.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== TI Compared to Bell ====
+
<p>The big innovation seems to be the development of a transistor that you were able to mass market for sale, correct? So was the procedure for that different than the research? There's a difference between developing the first prototype and refining the process for mass production. Or, is there? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You said there were organizational charts for Texas Instruments. As head of the research lab, did you find that a lot of your time was spent preparing such charts and doing other administrative tasks? Or could you devote your time to scientific research?
+
<p>It was pretty much the same thing. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== TI Compared to Bell  ====
  
I was too busy to devote all my time to research because I was busy passing on what I knew. That kept me pretty busy.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You said there were organizational charts for Texas Instruments. As head of the research lab, did you find that a lot of your time was spent preparing such charts and doing other administrative tasks? Or could you devote your time to scientific research? </p>
  
How did you pass it on, in conferences?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I was too busy to devote all my time to research because I was busy passing on what I knew. That kept me pretty busy. </p>
  
I just went out in the laboratory and said why don't we do this. I would get one of them to start the machine running and see what we could do.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How did you pass it on, in conferences? </p>
  
Did you like that role? How did that role compare to your job at Bell?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I just went out in the laboratory and said why don't we do this. I would get one of them to start the machine running and see what we could do. </p>
  
In a way they were the same.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did you like that role? How did that role compare to your job at Bell? </p>
  
You had done that same thing at Bell Labs?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>In a way they were the same. </p>
  
I had had a group of people at Bell. But all of the equipment — the crystal-growing equipment — was in one big room. So we had several machines going with several people doing different things with different machines at a certain time.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You had done that same thing at Bell Labs? </p>
  
Who were some of your people at Bell Labs?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I had had a group of people at Bell. But all of the equipment — the crystal-growing equipment — was in one big room. So we had several machines going with several people doing different things with different machines at a certain time. </p>
  
I had a group of people — Bill Slichter was one of them. He was a good man.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Who were some of your people at Bell Labs? </p>
  
What was your position at Bell Labs at the time you left?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I had a group of people — Bill Slichter was one of them. He was a good man. </p>
  
I had a small group of people.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What was your position at Bell Labs at the time you left? </p>
  
I may not have the right idea of the organization there. Were there different levels of responsibility? There was Shockley as head of the Solid-State Department, were you right under him or were there people in between?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I had a small group of people. </p>
  
Part of the time I was just working more or less by myself. But then, I gradually acquired several people.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== Silicon Junction Transistor ====
+
<p>I may not have the right idea of the organization there. Were there different levels of responsibility? There was [[William Shockley|Shockley]] as head of the Solid-State Department, were you right under him or were there people in between? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Let's go back to Texas Instruments. You succeed in producing a silicon junction transistor. What happened next?
+
<p>Part of the time I was just working more or less by myself. But then, I gradually acquired several people. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Silicon Junction Transistor  ====
  
I arrived at the beginning of '53. "The program succeeded in 1954, and the first commercially-feasible silicon transistor became a reality. In addition to the contribution of Willis Adcock, I should mention those of Dr. Morton Jones." I had gone out to California and picked him up at — he was graduating with a Ph.D. at Cal Tech. So he reported to Adcock. They did some of the work together, some independent. And then we also had one other man in Shepard's organization to work with Adcock — Boyd Corneliuson (sic). He had been running the equipment that they had when we first arrived because he had been working on it about half a year ahead.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Let's go back to Texas Instruments. You succeed in producing a silicon junction transistor. What happened next? </p>
  
Did they follow your recommendations pretty closely?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I arrived at the beginning of '53. "The program succeeded in 1954, and the first commercially-feasible silicon transistor became a reality. In addition to the contribution of [[Oral-History:Willis Adcock|Willis Adcock]], I should mention those of Dr. Morton Jones." I had gone out to California and picked him up at — he was graduating with a Ph.D. at Cal Tech. So he reported to Adcock. They did some of the work together, some independent. And then we also had one other man in Shepard's organization to work with Adcock — Boyd Corneliuson (sic). He had been running the equipment that they had when we first arrived because he had been working on it about half a year ahead. </p>
  
Yes. By the time I arrived I think they may have even sold a few transistors that they had made.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did they follow your recommendations pretty closely? </p>
  
Was that a problem with Bell Laboratories? You developed this technique while at Bell, and then you planned to go to Texas Instruments. And you told them what materials to get, what equipment to get, and what procedures to use. Were you responsible for doing that as far as Bell Labs was concerned?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. By the time I arrived I think they may have even sold a few transistors that they had made. </p>
  
Yes, because they got their license Western Electric to use their knowledge.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was that a problem with Bell Laboratories? You developed this technique while at Bell, and then you planned to go to Texas Instruments. And you told them what materials to get, what equipment to get, and what procedures to use. Were you responsible for doing that as far as Bell Labs was concerned? </p>
  
You said that at Bell Labs you had almost succeeded in creating the silicon transistor, and you were successful at Texas Instruments. Why did you want the silicon transistor?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, because they got their license Western Electric to use their knowledge. </p>
  
Because the germanium transistor would stand certain temperatures and then its efficiency as an amplifier would change when it was used. We wanted one that would continue working effectively as an amplifier. The germanium ran out at about 90 degrees, whereas the silicon transistor we found would operate at something like 150 degrees.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You said that at Bell Labs you had almost succeeded in creating the silicon transistor, and you were successful at Texas Instruments. Why did you want the silicon transistor? </p>
  
Were people building equipment using germanium transistors that reached the limit of their effectiveness because of the ambient heat? Was there a demand for transistors that withstood greater levels of heat?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Because the germanium transistor would stand certain temperatures and then its efficiency as an amplifier would change when it was used. We wanted one that would continue working effectively as an amplifier. The germanium ran out at about 90 degrees, whereas the silicon transistor we found would operate at something like 150 degrees. </p>
  
Well, germanium would not be an effective amplifier once the temperatures got above 90 degrees. But in the case of silicon, you could run them up until the operating transistor got up to about 150.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Were people building equipment using germanium transistors that reached the limit of their effectiveness because of the ambient heat? Was there a demand for transistors that withstood greater levels of heat? </p>
  
What I was asking was what customers complained about that? I can imagine that if you were building equipment to run in a cold environment, then that wouldn't be an issue.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Well, germanium would not be an effective amplifier once the temperatures got above 90 degrees. But in the case of silicon, you could run them up until the operating transistor got up to about 150. </p>
  
But people began to find some limitations in germanium. When they found them, they wanted to know what we were doing about it? How are we going to get the operation to continue at higher temperatures?
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What I was asking was what customers complained about that? I can imagine that if you were building equipment to run in a cold environment, then that wouldn't be an issue. </p>
  
One thing I happened to note, that the military was a large customer of silicon transistors because in the military applications — say, in rockets — it was quite important that they be able to stand up to terrific heat. Didn't they become one of your principal clients?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>But people began to find some limitations in germanium. When they found them, they wanted to know what we were doing about it? How are we going to get the operation to continue at higher temperatures? </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== TI Corporate History ====
+
<p>One thing I happened to note, that the military was a large customer of silicon transistors because in the military applications — say, in rockets — it was quite important that they be able to stand up to terrific heat. Didn't they become one of your principal clients? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You mentioned GSICL. What does that mean?
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== TI Corporate History  ====
  
GSI — Geophysical Service, Incorporated.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You mentioned GSICL. What does that mean? </p>
  
Was that a division of TI?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>GSI — Geophysical Service, Incorporated. </p>
  
Yes. That was the original company.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was that a division of TI? </p>
  
But you said GSICL was in 1951?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. That was the original company. </p>
  
In 1950, but they go back to 1930 as an organization. That was the company.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>But you said GSICL was in 1951? </p>
  
When did it become Texas Instruments?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>In 1950, but they go back to 1930 as an organization. That was the company. </p>
  
It became the company almost immediately before I got to TI. Let's see.... Korean War broke out on June 25, 1950. "On the day that the war broke out, Johnson superseded Peacock, who was the President of GSI. Two years later, Peacock sold his shares to his partners and others in the company." So he dropped out of the picture.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When did it become Texas Instruments? </p>
  
It sounds like GSI intended to remake themselves based on transistor technology. Was that the plan of Eric Johnson and others?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It became the company almost immediately before I got to TI. Let's see.... Korean War broke out on June 25, 1950. "On the day that the war broke out, Johnson superseded Peacock, who was the President of GSI. Two years later, Peacock sold his shares to his partners and others in the company." So he dropped out of the picture. </p>
  
No, I think the heads of it wanted to get into the electronics business, to make that and develop it as an important part of the group of men involved. Right after the war broke out defense spending became an important part of the business life.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
"TI sales doubled in 1951 to $15,400,000. But unlike some other defense-based companies, TI did not intend to remain merely a government supplier. Concerned that they might wake up one morning and find no government contracts, Johnson and Haggerty kept looking for ways to build up their industrial business. And Haggerty also worked out a new program of decentralization designed to enable the company to grow. Meanwhile defense sales kept rising, and in 1952 TI's volume was over $20 million. Johnson sought a public listing for the stock. TI did not, of course, have many shareholders. There were only 28 in early '52, all of them officers or directors. And then Peacock decided to sell out. He had the equivalent of 440,272 shares of the present stock."
+
<p>It sounds like GSI intended to remake themselves based on transistor technology. Was that the plan of Eric Johnson and others? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Sounds like you've described a strategic decision that Johnson and Haggerty made. Were you involved in such decisions about what markets they ought to try to serve?
+
<p>No, I think the heads of it wanted to get into the electronics business, to make that and develop it as an important part of the group of men involved. Right after the war broke out defense spending became an important part of the business life. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>"TI sales doubled in 1951 to $15,400,000. But unlike some other defense-based companies, TI did not intend to remain merely a government supplier. Concerned that they might wake up one morning and find no government contracts, Johnson and Haggerty kept looking for ways to build up their industrial business. And Haggerty also worked out a new program of decentralization designed to enable the company to grow. Meanwhile defense sales kept rising, and in 1952 TI's volume was over $20 million. Johnson sought a public listing for the stock. TI did not, of course, have many shareholders. There were only 28 in early '52, all of them officers or directors. And then Peacock decided to sell out. He had the equivalent of 440,272 shares of the present stock." </p>
  
No, I wasn't involved really in the sales part of it. I sat in on the Management Committee when I arrived and continued to sit in on it as time went along.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
"Trading in Texas Instruments common began on October 1, 1953, and the company made an occasion of it. When the ten o'clock gong signaled the opening of the day's business, Johnson was on the floor, and his colleagues were in the gallery and let out a cheer, as the tape flashed: 'NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE, OCTOBER 1, 1953, MARKET OPEN. TEXAN, 5-1/4 POINTS.' President Johnson bought the first hundred shares and thereby got Certificate No. 1."
+
<p>Sounds like you've described a strategic decision that Johnson and Haggerty made. Were you involved in such decisions about what markets they ought to try to serve? </p>
  
"A stock option plan helped, too, after it was introduced in '57 when the price was around $30, since then 142 employees got options on some 162,000 shares at prices ranging from $28.50 to $178.75. Aside from options, Haggerty, Johnson, Greene and McDermott currently owned over one million shares among them. And 15 other officers owned over 100,000 shares. All in all, TI management holds 28.2 percent of the stock."
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>No, I wasn't involved really in the sales part of it. I sat in on the Management Committee when I arrived and continued to sit in on it as time went along. </p>
  
The laboratory you were running, would you characterize this work more as materials science or electrical engineering? Is it pure research or applied research?
+
<p>"Trading in Texas Instruments common began on October 1, 1953, and the company made an occasion of it. When the ten o'clock gong signaled the opening of the day's business, Johnson was on the floor, and his colleagues were in the gallery and let out a cheer, as the tape flashed: 'NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE, OCTOBER 1, 1953, MARKET OPEN. TEXAN, 5-1/4 POINTS.' President Johnson bought the first hundred shares and thereby got Certificate No. 1." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>"A stock option plan helped, too, after it was introduced in '57 when the price was around $30, since then 142 employees got options on some 162,000 shares at prices ranging from $28.50 to $178.75. Aside from options, Haggerty, Johnson, Greene and McDermott currently owned over one million shares among them. And 15 other officers owned over 100,000 shares. All in all, TI management holds 28.2 percent of the stock." </p>
  
It was partly chemistry, partly physics and partly electrical engineering. So it was a mixture.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>The laboratory you were running, would you characterize this work more as materials science or electrical engineering? Is it pure research or applied research? </p>
  
Were you equally successful in each element essential to your final goals?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
=== Association with IEEE ===
+
<p>It was partly chemistry, partly physics and partly electrical engineering. So it was a mixture. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Yes. Additionally, my association with the IEEE began about 1956. I was into IRE when I went there. In other words, I had been made a Fellow. And in 1959 I appointed to the Board of Directors of the Institute of Radio Engineers. And then I was elected a member of the Board of Directors of IEEE about a year later.
+
<p>Were you equally successful in each element essential to your final goals? </p>
  
=== Recap: Teal’s Role in Inventing Transistor at Bell ===
+
=== Association with IEEE  ===
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Did you have the lab separated into physics, chemistry and engineering divisions like Bell Labs did?
+
<p>Yes. Additionally, my association with the [[IEEE History|IEEE]] began about 1956. I was into [[IRE History 1912-1963|IRE]] when I went there. In other words, I had been made a [[IEEE Fellow Grade History|Fellow]]. And in 1959 I appointed to the Board of Directors of the Institute of Radio Engineers. And then I was elected a member of the Board of Directors of IEEE about a year later. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
=== Recap: Teal’s Role in Inventing Transistor at Bell  ===
  
To a certain extent, yes. I had a physics department.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did you have the lab separated into physics, chemistry and engineering divisions like Bell Labs did? </p>
  
How were communications between the departments arranged?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>To a certain extent, yes. I had a physics department. </p>
  
If they needed to talk, they got together and talked.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How were communications between the departments arranged? </p>
  
Was it informal?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>If they needed to talk, they got together and talked. </p>
  
Usually. Or sometimes we would have formal meetings. On this issue I wrote: "In the fall of 1951 Western Electric offered licenses to anyone who'd pay a $25,000 advance on royalties. TI sent its check in the next day. The following spring Bell held an eight-day symposium to teach transistor technology to the licensees. Haggerty, Olsen, Mark Shepard and Boyd Corneliuson, a young electrical engineer who had recently gone on the payroll, went up for the symposium.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
When they returned, Shepard set up a small group fabricating transistors and started building an organization which, a year and a half later, became the Semiconductor Components Division. Shepard, an Assistant Vice President at 30, was its manager. Like other scientist-managers then exploring the new universe of solid-state physics, he had a special kind of organization problem: getting chemists, physicists and electrical and mechanical engineers to apply their different disciplines in concert. Shepard's organization got a lot more from Bell Labs than know-how and license. He got a scientist named Gordon Teal."
+
<p>Was it informal? </p>
  
"Teal was one of the men who had provided Shockley, Bardeen and Brattain and others at Bell Labs with the grown single-crystal germanium materials they needed for their experimental work. He had been one of the inventors of the single-crystal grown-junction technique of making transistors."
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
The grown-junction, I was the inventor of that. But the junction transistor is something that Shockley and Sparks and I all shared in the responsibility for achieving. I wrote: "He had a highly advanced knowledge of solid-state physics and a specialized knowledge of materials used in semiconductors. At Brown University he had written both his master's and his Ph.D. theses on one of these materials, germanium. Years later at Bell, Teal and a mechanical engineer, John Little, were asked to figure out a way to grow some single-crystal germanium." We weren't asked to figure it out — this is not absolutely correct here — because we weren't told to grow some. That was my own idea.
+
<p>Usually. Or sometimes we would have formal meetings. On this issue I wrote: "In the fall of 1951 Western Electric offered licenses to anyone who'd pay a $25,000 advance on royalties. TI sent its check in the next day. The following spring Bell held an eight-day symposium to teach transistor technology to the licensees. Haggerty, Olsen, Mark Shepard and Boyd Corneliuson, a young electrical engineer who had recently gone on the payroll, went up for the symposium. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When they returned, Shepard set up a small group fabricating transistors and started building an organization which, a year and a half later, became the Semiconductor Components Division. Shepard, an Assistant Vice President at 30, was its manager. Like other scientist-managers then exploring the new universe of solid-state physics, he had a special kind of organization problem: getting chemists, physicists and electrical and mechanical engineers to apply their different disciplines in concert. Shepard's organization got a lot more from Bell Labs than know-how and license. He got a scientist named Gordon Teal." </p>
  
Did Bell discourage you from working on that?
+
<p>"Teal was one of the men who had provided Shockley, Bardeen and Brattain and others at Bell Labs with the grown single-crystal germanium materials they needed for their experimental work. He had been one of the inventors of the single-crystal grown-junction technique of making transistors." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>The grown-junction, I was the inventor of that. But the junction transistor is something that Shockley and Sparks and I all shared in the responsibility for achieving. I wrote: "He had a highly advanced knowledge of solid-state physics and a specialized knowledge of materials used in semiconductors. At Brown University he had written both his master's and his Ph.D. theses on one of these materials, germanium. Years later at Bell, Teal and a mechanical engineer, John Little, were asked to figure out a way to grow some single-crystal germanium." We weren't asked to figure it out — this is not absolutely correct here — because we weren't told to grow some. That was my own idea. </p>
  
Yes. Also John Little was not asked to figure out a way to grow single crystals. He was just trying to make a rod that they needed in the production side there at Bell.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did Bell discourage you from working on that? </p>
  
Do you know why they needed a rod of germanium?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. Also John Little was not asked to figure out a way to grow single crystals. He was just trying to make a rod that they needed in the production side there at Bell. </p>
  
I don't know exactly what, but I don't think there was anything inventive about it. They certainly had no desire to make single crystals. They resisted making single crystals all they could, without leaving themselves open to criticism later.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Do you know why they needed a rod of germanium? </p>
  
How did that position change in the bureaucracy? What was their strategy when they did go after it?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I don't know exactly what, but I don't think there was anything inventive about it. They certainly had no desire to make single crystals. They resisted making single crystals all they could, without leaving themselves open to criticism later. </p>
  
It's hard to say. People weren't too sure of just what their strategy should be. On the issue I wrote: "Within a few months Teal and his colleagues had grown the first germanium single crystal and had also grown the first silicon single crystal with p-n junctions; that is, positive and negative junctions so that a current can be controlled. Shepard's organization acquired this valuable — "
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How did that position change in the bureaucracy? What was their strategy when they did go after it? </p>
  
That confuses me. Isn't a p-n junction simply a diode? That wouldn't be a transistor, would it?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It's hard to say. People weren't too sure of just what their strategy should be. On the issue I wrote: "Within a few months Teal and his colleagues had grown the first germanium single crystal and had also grown the first silicon single crystal with p-n junctions; that is, positive and negative junctions so that a current can be controlled. Shepard's organization acquired this valuable — " </p>
  
It has to be a p-n-p or an n-p-n.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>That confuses me. Isn't a p-n junction simply a diode? That wouldn't be a transistor, would it? </p>
  
Right. There's the three.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It has to be a p-n-p or an n-p-n. </p>
  
Right.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Right. There's the three. </p>
  
Was that harder than just a p-n junction?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Right. </p>
  
Yes. It is a little more complicated. You need equipment to drop a pellet in — one was a p-type pellet, and the other one was the negative — and do it at just the right amount.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was that harder than just a p-n junction? </p>
  
Was that the hard part?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. It is a little more complicated. You need equipment to drop a pellet in — one was a p-type pellet, and the other one was the negative — and do it at just the right amount. </p>
  
It is hard to say, but you had to have a puller.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was that the hard part? </p>
  
You were saying, it's hard to say which was the more challenging part.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It is hard to say, but you had to have a puller. </p>
  
Yes, but it is written here: "Shepard and Boyd Corneliuson had designed and built a machine that grew germanium crystals." Yes, that's true, except it doesn't say that before they built the machine, I told them how to build it. That was about a half a year before I got there.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
=== Texas Instrument Cont'd.<br> ===
+
<p>You were saying, it's hard to say which was the more challenging part. </p>
  
==== Initial Reluctance to Join TI ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Yes, but it is written here: "Shepard and Boyd Corneliuson had designed and built a machine that grew germanium crystals." Yes, that's true, except it doesn't say that before they built the machine, I told them how to build it. That was about a half a year before I got there. </p>
  
So you knew for half a year that you were going to TI. Is that right?
+
=== Texas Instrument Cont'd. ===
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Initial Reluctance to Join TI  ====
  
Not immediately. I think the first time I considered going, I turned it down.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So you knew for half a year that you were going to TI. Is that right? </p>
  
Really!?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Not immediately. I think the first time I considered going, I turned it down. </p>
  
Pat Haggerty made quite an effort to get me down there.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Really!? </p>
  
Why were you resistant at first?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Pat Haggerty made quite an effort to get me down there. </p>
  
I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at the time, but it was a big decision, and it was a pretty complicated decision for my family. Anyway, Haggerty persisted, and then I agreed.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Going back to the preceding issue, they had built a machine that grew single crystals. That was no surprise because I went down and spent a lot of time telling them exactly what to do. It wasn’t done absolutely like I told them, but I am certain I was partly responsible for it turning out successfully.
+
<p>Why were you resistant at first? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
What did you think they were doing wrong?
+
<p>I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at the time, but it was a big decision, and it was a pretty complicated decision for my family. Anyway, Haggerty persisted, and then I agreed. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Going back to the preceding issue, they had built a machine that grew single crystals. That was no surprise because I went down and spent a lot of time telling them exactly what to do. It wasn’t done absolutely like I told them, but I am certain I was partly responsible for it turning out successfully. </p>
  
They needed the background knowledge that I already had because I had already designed the damned machine. I designed it with the help of the people who were in my group at Bell Labs. I think we had four machines working before I left there and we'd done a lot of experimenting in building those machines in different ways.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What did you think they were doing wrong? </p>
  
This is materials science experimenting, finding out properties of the germanium and the silicon?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>They needed the background knowledge that I already had because I had already designed the damned machine. I designed it with the help of the people who were in my group at Bell Labs. I think we had four machines working before I left there and we'd done a lot of experimenting in building those machines in different ways. </p>
  
Yes. Just learning how we had to pull it out and giving that process consistency was challenging.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== Epitaxial Making ====
+
<p>This is materials science experimenting, finding out properties of the germanium and the silicon? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
Somewhere I read that there is another way of doing this. For instance, there is the epitaxial technique. Could you describe what that is?
+
<p>Yes. Just learning how we had to pull it out and giving that process consistency was challenging. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Epitaxial Making  ====
  
I have a patent on epitaxial making.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Somewhere I read that there is another way of doing this. For instance, there is the epitaxial technique. Could you describe what that is? </p>
  
What does that mean? What does the epitaxial describe?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I have a patent on epitaxial making. </p>
  
Christianson and I had a patent on epitaxial. Here it is! "The Method of Fabricating Germanium Bodies."
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I write: "The method of forming a layer of germanium — a body of germanium — which compromises mounting said body in a chamber passing over said body in a mixture of hydrogen germanium halide and an impurity determining a conductivity type opposite to that of the said body in gas form, and heating said chamber to thermally decompose said halide."
+
<p>What does that mean? What does the epitaxial describe? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
What were some of the alternative techniques that you were working on [besides] epitaxial? Were there other approaches? If you were working on epitaxial pulling, were there other approaches that other people were doing?
+
<p>Christianson and I had a patent on epitaxial. Here it is! "The Method of Fabricating Germanium Bodies." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I write: "The method of forming a layer of germanium — a body of germanium — which compromises mounting said body in a chamber passing over said body in a mixture of hydrogen germanium halide and an impurity determining a conductivity type opposite to that of the said body in gas form, and heating said chamber to thermally decompose said halide." </p>
  
I believe it was the first time. I believe that this is the patent. "In accordance with one broad feature of this invention, a film or layer of the semiconductor material of one conductivity type is formed on a body or substratum of a material of a different conductivity, of the opposite conductivity."
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== The Transistor Radio ====
+
<p>What were some of the alternative techniques that you were working on [besides] epitaxial? Were there other approaches? If you were working on epitaxial pulling, were there other approaches that other people were doing? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
This was in the mid-nineteen fifties. Can you recall what you were doing in the late 'fifties. After the successful production of the silicon grown-junction transistor, what research did you promote in the lab?
+
<p>I believe it was the first time. I believe that this is the patent. "In accordance with one broad feature of this invention, a film or layer of the semiconductor material of one conductivity type is formed on a body or substratum of a material of a different conductivity, of the opposite conductivity." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== The Transistor Radio  ====
  
Texas Instruments, this other was done in '54. As you can see, I've got quite a few patents here listed. I mean the actual patents.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>This was in the mid-nineteen fifties. Can you recall what you were doing in the late 'fifties. After the successful production of the silicon grown-junction transistor, what research did you promote in the lab? </p>
  
You had a lot of ideas for the different electron amplifiers and iconoscopes that you were working on at Bell Labs in the 'thirties. What Texas Instruments was researching in the late 'fifties?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Texas Instruments, this other was done in '54. As you can see, I've got quite a few patents here listed. I mean the actual patents. </p>
  
We got into some other developments. I wasn't really the inventor of the particular things.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You had a lot of ideas for the different electron amplifiers and iconoscopes that you were working on at Bell Labs in the 'thirties. What Texas Instruments was researching in the late 'fifties? </p>
  
What was your role as head of the laboratory then if you weren't the inventor? What were you doing?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>We got into some other developments. I wasn't really the inventor of the particular things. </p>
  
The variety of jobs that a boss usually has to do just to keep things together and meet certain deadlines.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What was your role as head of the laboratory then if you weren't the inventor? What were you doing? </p>
  
Well, you said in '54 and '55 you would go into the lab and say to somebody, "Let's try this." Were you still doing that?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>The variety of jobs that a boss usually has to do just to keep things together and meet certain deadlines. </p>
  
Not as much. At this point I write: "Shepard's organization made a major commercial breakthrough in the use of germanium transistors. His Semiconductor Division had been producing germanium transistors in commercial quantities, but they sold for $10 to $16 a piece, and the market was still small — mostly in the hearing aids. Haggerty figured that if they could get the price down to about two dollars and a half, they could open up a big market in portable radios. TI designed a transistor and a process for mass-producing it that would enable the company to meet this price goal. Then Haggerty and Harris went to an independent radio manufacturer, the producer of the Regency line, and helped it to bring out the first transistor radio."
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Well, you said in '54 and '55 you would go into the lab and say to somebody, "Let's try this." Were you still doing that? </p>
  
Let me ask you about that. It says that Haggerty set a price goal and then decided that if TI could manufacture transistors at that price, then portable radios would be feasible. After that did they then talk to you about how to develop the process at cost per unit? Did the goal to produce the radios come before the technology to produce the transistors? When you started working on it, did you know that Haggerty had this $2.50 per transistor objective?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Not as much. At this point I write: "Shepard's organization made a major commercial breakthrough in the use of germanium transistors. His Semiconductor Division had been producing germanium transistors in commercial quantities, but they sold for $10 to $16 a piece, and the market was still small — mostly in the hearing aids. Haggerty figured that if they could get the price down to about two dollars and a half, they could open up a big market in portable radios. TI designed a transistor and a process for mass-producing it that would enable the company to meet this price goal. Then Haggerty and Harris went to an independent radio manufacturer, the producer of the Regency line, and helped it to bring out the first transistor radio." </p>
  
No.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Let me ask you about that. It says that Haggerty set a price goal and then decided that if TI could manufacture transistors at that price, then portable radios would be feasible. After that did they then talk to you about how to develop the process at cost per unit? Did the goal to produce the radios come before the technology to produce the transistors? When you started working on it, did you know that Haggerty had this $2.50 per transistor objective? </p>
  
Did he only formulate those plans once you developed your procedure?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No. </p>
  
I was in favor of Shepard trying to learn the mass manufacturing technique. I would tend to be working on jobs that would be harder than that.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did he only formulate those plans once you developed your procedure? </p>
  
What do you mean by that?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I was in favor of Shepard trying to learn the mass manufacturing technique. I would tend to be working on jobs that would be harder than that. </p>
  
I mean there was more research-type of things.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What do you mean by that? </p>
  
Was it Shepard's influence that brought emphasize production goals?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I mean there was more research-type of things. </p>
  
Mass production was something more important for him and his people to work on rather than for me.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was it Shepard's influence that brought emphasize production goals? </p>
  
Who were his people? Was he in charge of production?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Mass production was something more important for him and his people to work on rather than for me. </p>
  
The expert on growing crystals was Corneliuson. We had taught Corneliuson a lot of what he knew. He asked some machinist to make things that he needed as well, so they had more people. No use using research people to do jobs that other people probably could do.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== Organization of Research Lab in Late 1950s ====
+
<p>Who were his people? Was he in charge of production? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You were saying that by the late 'fifties and early 'sixties, you were spending less time in the lab. Where did the direction for the laboratory come from? Who was in charge of the projects that they were working on?
+
<p>The expert on growing crystals was Corneliuson. We had taught Corneliuson a lot of what he knew. He asked some machinist to make things that he needed as well, so they had more people. No use using research people to do jobs that other people probably could do. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Organization of Research Lab in Late 1950s  ====
  
No one. As the people that I brought in got experience, they were capable of having good ideas themselves and not have to be directed in everything they did.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You were saying that by the late 'fifties and early 'sixties, you were spending less time in the lab. Where did the direction for the laboratory come from? Who was in charge of the projects that they were working on? </p>
  
They would launch their own research projects?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No one. As the people that I brought in got experience, they were capable of having good ideas themselves and not have to be directed in everything they did. </p>
  
Yes, and I depended on the group heads to give them instructions rather than me.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>They would launch their own research projects? </p>
  
Were the group heads a part of the project from the very beginning? Or did you create the positions as the lab grew larger?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, and I depended on the group heads to give them instructions rather than me. </p>
  
It was something that developed as the lab grew larger because I had to depend on the group heads.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Were the group heads a part of the project from the very beginning? Or did you create the positions as the lab grew larger? </p>
  
Right. Were there group heads from day one?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It was something that developed as the lab grew larger because I had to depend on the group heads. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Right. Were there group heads from day one? </p>
  
Was the research very product-oriented? Did they have to have an application in mind?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
I thought it would be a good idea if it brought out new and better ways of doing some things, so yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was the research very product-oriented? Did they have to have an application in mind? </p>
  
Can we go over some of those then?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I thought it would be a good idea if it brought out new and better ways of doing some things, so yes. </p>
  
I wanted to go ahead and read this, "The Crystal With a Future": "Meanwhile Research and Development — that is, Teal and his assistant, Dr. Willis Adcock — had been plugging away at silicon as a transistor material. Silicon was known to have one large advantage over germanium. It could withstand much higher temperatures. This difference did not matter much in radios, but it could be decisive in a wide variety of military applications; that is, in the transistors in missiles. However, the electronics industry did not then view the silicon transistor as a commercially feasible proposition. Teal combed the country for men to help in his project and added a select few of them to his staff. Corneliuson managed to build a ingenious silicon crystal-growing machine for TI.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
"One day early in 1954 — ." I bet I gave them good ideas on how to build a crucible at least half a year before that. But how can you know about all the things when so many things were going on at one time? "Teal and Adcock, Haggerty and Shepard and a few others knew that that crystal was going to alter the look of the transistor industry. They knew they could now go ahead with a product that the industry regarded as several years away commercially. Controlling their excitement over this development, Haggerty and his team set about making the most of it. Within a few weeks TI had silicon transistors in production. The industry was still in the dark."
+
<p>Can we go over some of those then? </p>
  
==== The Silicon-Grown Transistor ====
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I wanted to go ahead and read this, "The Crystal With a Future": "Meanwhile Research and Development — that is, Teal and his assistant, Dr. Willis Adcock — had been plugging away at silicon as a transistor material. Silicon was known to have one large advantage over germanium. It could withstand much higher temperatures. This difference did not matter much in radios, but it could be decisive in a wide variety of military applications; that is, in the transistors in missiles. However, the electronics industry did not then view the silicon transistor as a commercially feasible proposition. Teal combed the country for men to help in his project and added a select few of them to his staff. Corneliuson managed to build a ingenious silicon crystal-growing machine for TI. </p>
  
Why were people so skeptical about the possibility of a silicon-grown transistor?
+
<p>"One day early in 1954 — ." I bet I gave them good ideas on how to build a crucible at least half a year before that. But how can you know about all the things when so many things were going on at one time? "Teal and Adcock, Haggerty and Shepard and a few others knew that that crystal was going to alter the look of the transistor industry. They knew they could now go ahead with a product that the industry regarded as several years away commercially. Controlling their excitement over this development, Haggerty and his team set about making the most of it. Within a few weeks TI had silicon transistors in production. The industry was still in the dark." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== The Silicon-Grown Transistor  ====
  
Most of them didn't know anything about silicon, except sand. Pure silicon—they didn't know beans about pure silicon.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Why were people so skeptical about the possibility of a silicon-grown transistor? </p>
  
Was it that people thought you could never get sufficient purity or did people think it was too brittle?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Most of them didn't know anything about silicon, except sand. Pure silicon—they didn't know beans about pure silicon. </p>
  
Well, most people did not know enough to have any brilliant thoughts about the subject. Why should you make something out of silicon when you already have germanium?
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was it that people thought you could never get sufficient purity or did people think it was too brittle? </p>
  
But weren't you doing silicon carbide rectifiers as early as the 1940s?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Well, most people did not know enough to have any brilliant thoughts about the subject. Why should you make something out of silicon when you already have germanium? </p>
  
Silicon carbide is not comparable with silicon or germanium, except for one of the atoms of silicon carbide.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>But weren't you doing silicon carbide rectifiers as early as the 1940s? </p>
  
Why then did you think silicon would make a good material for transistors?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Silicon carbide is not comparable with silicon or germanium, except for one of the atoms of silicon carbide. </p>
  
I just thought we could make one. I had had an interest in silicon at the time that I was working getting a degree primarily on germanium.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Why then did you think silicon would make a good material for transistors? </p>
  
Did you have any theoretical foundation for that belief? What about your awareness of silicon made you think that it was plausible to make transistors out of it?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I just thought we could make one. I had had an interest in silicon at the time that I was working getting a degree primarily on germanium. </p>
  
Silicon and germanium should be compared. They were very much alike; they were in the same periodic table.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did you have any theoretical foundation for that belief? What about your awareness of silicon made you think that it was plausible to make transistors out of it? </p>
  
Other chemists knew that, so did they know there were germanium transistors?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Silicon and germanium should be compared. They were very much alike; they were in the same periodic table. </p>
  
They didn't know enough about the periodic table, and they hadn't done a lot of work on silicon-germanium type of problems. I was there for three years working on things that were just like silicon and germanium.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Other chemists knew that, so did they know there were germanium transistors? </p>
  
So you are saying it is not that they ruled out silicon; it's just that it never occurred to them.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>They didn't know enough about the periodic table, and they hadn't done a lot of work on silicon-germanium type of problems. I was there for three years working on things that were just like silicon and germanium. </p>
  
They didn't know enough about chemistry in most cases. So it wouldn't have occurred to them. I write on this subject: "Sometime earlier, as it happened, Teal had agreed to be one of the speakers before the National Conference on Airborne Electronics in Dayton, Ohio, on May 10, 1954, to speak on 'Some New and Recent Developments in Silicon and Germanium.' Haggerty and Teal decided not to alter this tedious title after the silicon breakthrough, but instead to retain it as a perfect cloak for the big news they had to impart. They decided to work the news into Teal's speech, and Buddy Harris began asking for copies to pass around at Dayton. 'The meeting was on Monday,' Teal recalled recently, 'and we didn't finish working on that paper until five in the morning.' The TI group stuffed copies of the paper in their briefcases, took along a little record player and made a dash for the plane."
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Also I address it in this paragraph entitled, "I Just Happen to Have Some Here": "The auditorium of the Dayton Engineering Club was packed with representatives of the electronics industry, the military and the press. The first speeches droned on. Someone asked one speaker in the audience: 'When are you going to have the silicon transistor?' He replied that it was a long way off, adding in a reproving tone, 'You're not paying attention to your good germanium transistor.'"
+
<p>So you are saying it is not that they ruled out silicon; it's just that it never occurred to them. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
A comment like that suggests that people did want the silicon transistor, that people were aware that silicon had the higher melting point, and it was only a problem of technique, not awareness. Is that inaccurate?
+
<p>They didn't know enough about chemistry in most cases. So it wouldn't have occurred to them. I write on this subject: "Sometime earlier, as it happened, Teal had agreed to be one of the speakers before the National Conference on Airborne Electronics in Dayton, Ohio, on May 10, 1954, to speak on 'Some New and Recent Developments in Silicon and Germanium.' Haggerty and Teal decided not to alter this tedious title after the silicon breakthrough, but instead to retain it as a perfect cloak for the big news they had to impart. They decided to work the news into Teal's speech, and Buddy Harris began asking for copies to pass around at Dayton. 'The meeting was on Monday,' Teal recalled recently, 'and we didn't finish working on that paper until five in the morning.' The TI group stuffed copies of the paper in their briefcases, took along a little record player and made a dash for the plane." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Also I address it in this paragraph entitled, "I Just Happen to Have Some Here": "The auditorium of the Dayton Engineering Club was packed with representatives of the electronics industry, the military and the press. The first speeches droned on. Someone asked one speaker in the audience: 'When are you going to have the silicon transistor?' He replied that it was a long way off, adding in a reproving tone, 'You're not paying attention to your good germanium transistor.'" </p>
  
Let us see, I haven't read it for a long time. "The auditorium of the Dayton Engineering Club was packed with representatives of the electronics industry, the military and the press. The first speeches droned on. One speaker was asked by someone in the audience, 'When are you going to have the silicon transistor?' He replied that it was a long way off, adding in a reproving tone, 'You are not paying attention to our good germanium transistor.'"
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
"The next to the last speaker explained that although his company was working on the silicon transistor, it could not possibly be produced for at least two years. The last speaker was Teal. He plodded through most of his 'Recent Developments in Silicon and Germanium' without inspiring any excitement. Then, towards the end of his speech, he read these words: 'Many laboratories have been very active in the study of silicon and investigating its possibilities as a transistor material. Substantial progress has been made at Texas Instruments. The work to be reported is the result of collaborative investigation by W.A. Adcock, Morton E. Jones, J.W. Thornhill and Edmund D. Jackson. They have successfully constructed n-p-n silicon grown-junction transistors and have developed the process to a point such that our company now has two types of silicon transistors in production. They forecast an exciting future for silicon materials and devices, and one which will strongly affect circuits and apparatus designs in the years to come.' Out front there was silence and stupefaction as these words sank in."
+
<p>A comment like that suggests that people did want the silicon transistor, that people were aware that silicon had the higher melting point, and it was only a problem of technique, not awareness. Is that inaccurate? </p>
  
"Then somebody jumped up and stammered, 'Do you mean that you have this in production?' 'Yes,' replied Teal blandly, 'I just happen to have some here in my coat pocket.' He walked backstage, brought out a little record player, and gave the audience a demonstration. While a germanium transistor did not make any sound after having been dipped in oil at 150, the silicon transistor with the same treatment came through loud and clear. Then Teal concluded by announcing that a few copies of this prepared speech were available ‘in case some of you are interested.' There was a stampede for copies and for the phone booth. One man from Raytheon put in a call to his executive vice president and was heard in the booth croaking hoarsely, 'They got the silicon transistors down in Texas!'  
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
"The silicon transistor was a turning point in TI's history. For with this advance, it gained a big head start over the competition in a critical electronic product. There was no effective competition in silicon transistors until 1958. TI's sales rose almost vertically. The company was suddenly in the big leagues, but there it ran into a new and larger order of problems."  
+
<p>Let us see, I haven't read it for a long time. "The auditorium of the Dayton Engineering Club was packed with representatives of the electronics industry, the military and the press. The first speeches droned on. One speaker was asked by someone in the audience, 'When are you going to have the silicon transistor?' He replied that it was a long way off, adding in a reproving tone, 'You are not paying attention to our good germanium transistor.'" </p>
  
==== Integrated Circuits ====
+
<p>"The next to the last speaker explained that although his company was working on the silicon transistor, it could not possibly be produced for at least two years. The last speaker was Teal. He plodded through most of his 'Recent Developments in Silicon and Germanium' without inspiring any excitement. Then, towards the end of his speech, he read these words: 'Many laboratories have been very active in the study of silicon and investigating its possibilities as a transistor material. Substantial progress has been made at Texas Instruments. The work to be reported is the result of collaborative investigation by W.A. Adcock, Morton E. Jones, J.W. Thornhill and Edmund D. Jackson. They have successfully constructed n-p-n silicon grown-junction transistors and have developed the process to a point such that our company now has two types of silicon transistors in production. They forecast an exciting future for silicon materials and devices, and one which will strongly affect circuits and apparatus designs in the years to come.' Out front there was silence and stupefaction as these words sank in." </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>"Then somebody jumped up and stammered, 'Do you mean that you have this in production?' 'Yes,' replied Teal blandly, 'I just happen to have some here in my coat pocket.' He walked backstage, brought out a little record player, and gave the audience a demonstration. While a germanium transistor did not make any sound after having been dipped in oil at 150, the silicon transistor with the same treatment came through loud and clear. Then Teal concluded by announcing that a few copies of this prepared speech were available ‘in case some of you are interested.' There was a stampede for copies and for the phone booth. One man from Raytheon put in a call to his executive vice president and was heard in the booth croaking hoarsely, 'They got the silicon transistors down in Texas!' </p>
  
Can you tell me about the introduction of integrated circuits at TI? Were you involved with that research?
+
<p>"The silicon transistor was a turning point in TI's history. For with this advance, it gained a big head start over the competition in a critical electronic product. There was no effective competition in silicon transistors until 1958. TI's sales rose almost vertically. The company was suddenly in the big leagues, but there it ran into a new and larger order of problems." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Integrated Circuits  ====
  
I was.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Can you tell me about the introduction of integrated circuits at TI? Were you involved with that research? </p>
  
Can you tell me something about the development effort of printed circuits at TI?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I was. </p>
  
Yes. I think it was definitely helped because at TI we knew how to grow single crystals. So I think it grew out of that.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Can you tell me something about the development effort of printed circuits at TI? </p>
  
When you described the entire research effort of Texas Instruments, were you the head of all research or just that particular laboratory?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. I think it was definitely helped because at TI we knew how to grow single crystals. So I think it grew out of that. </p>
  
I was head of Research.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When you described the entire research effort of Texas Instruments, were you the head of all research or just that particular laboratory? </p>
  
There's one thing that I had a specific question about. You write here, "Probably the most significant product since the transistor, was announced for sale in 1959. This was the Texas Instruments solid circuit. This exciting new area of electronic technology was started at the CRL by Willie Adcock several years earlier with his research on a line of diodes on a silicon wafer and in which an outside group later expressed considerable interest. The solid-circuit project was later transferred out of the Central Research Laboratory to the Semiconductor Components Division at such an early stage that many people do not recognize it had its birth in CRL." What was the Semiconductor Components Division? You said that the project was transferred out of CRL to the Semiconductor Components Division, and I don't know of that division.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I was head of Research. </p>
  
That was a division of Shepard's operation—the production part.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>There's one thing that I had a specific question about. You write here, "Probably the most significant product since the transistor, was announced for sale in 1959. This was the Texas Instruments solid circuit. This exciting new area of electronic technology was started at the CRL by [[Oral-History:Willis Adcock|Willie Adcock]] several years earlier with his research on a line of diodes on a silicon wafer and in which an outside group later expressed considerable interest. The solid-circuit project was later transferred out of the Central Research Laboratory to the Semiconductor Components Division at such an early stage that many people do not recognize it had its birth in CRL." What was the Semiconductor Components Division? You said that the project was transferred out of CRL to the Semiconductor Components Division, and I don't know of that division. </p>
  
Was there a development laboratory that Shepard ran?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>That was a division of Shepard's operation—the production part. </p>
  
Yes. Shepard, I guess, and I suppose Haggerty, too, wanted to get it into production as soon as possible. At the time I would have preferred that I remained in Research, but it was done anyway.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was there a development laboratory that Shepard ran? </p>
  
Whose decision was that?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. Shepard, I guess, and I suppose Haggerty, too, wanted to get it into production as soon as possible. At the time I would have preferred that I remained in Research, but it was done anyway. </p>
  
It's hard to say whether Shepard put up a fight for it or whether the boss was the one who made the decision.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Whose decision was that? </p>
  
By boss you mean Haggerty?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It's hard to say whether Shepard put up a fight for it or whether the boss was the one who made the decision. </p>
  
Yes. Haggerty.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>By boss you mean Haggerty? </p>
  
Well, then we can just talk about it in general, about the table of organization at TI or the procedure for developing any product. Did they tend to start at the Chemistry Research Laboratory (CRL) and then move to development?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. Haggerty. </p>
  
Shepard was given, gradually, more responsibility in some of these fast-moving things. I would have preferred that it be handled in CRL at least another year.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Well, then we can just talk about it in general, about the table of organization at TI or the procedure for developing any product. Did they tend to start at the Chemistry Research Laboratory (CRL) and then move to development? </p>
  
Do you remember why that is? Did it seem undeveloped to you?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Shepard was given, gradually, more responsibility in some of these fast-moving things. I would have preferred that it be handled in CRL at least another year. </p>
  
Yes. Because we knew that there was a great deal that we could do and that's where the thing started.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Do you remember why that is? Did it seem undeveloped to you? </p>
  
What more could you have done?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. Because we knew that there was a great deal that we could do and that's where the thing started. </p>
  
The whole job.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What more could you have done? </p>
  
So there was competition between CRL and Shepard's group? Texas Instrument the company still developed it. But it sounds like you would have liked to hold onto that project?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>The whole job. </p>
  
Yes, I would have. But Adcock was moved out.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So there was competition between CRL and Shepard's group? Texas Instrument the company still developed it. But it sounds like you would have liked to hold onto that project? </p>
  
I'm not sure I understand what benefit you would have gotten had it stayed in CRL. Would they have gained a sounder scientific understanding?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, I would have. But Adcock was moved out. </p>
  
It is a pretty touchy subject for me after all these years to start trying to do something about it. I think we could have done the job very well if it was kept in CRL, and that is my personal opinion. But there were powers that be that decided to move it elsewhere.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
==== Growth of the CRL ====
+
<p>I'm not sure I understand what benefit you would have gotten had it stayed in CRL. Would they have gained a sounder scientific understanding? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
You say that in 1959 CRL was provided with a new building. Do you remember that, the move to a new laboratory?
+
<p>It is a pretty touchy subject for me after all these years to start trying to do something about it. I think we could have done the job very well if it was kept in CRL, and that is my personal opinion. But there were powers that be that decided to move it elsewhere. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
==== Growth of the CRL  ====
  
Yes. We were glad to have that new building.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You say that in 1959 CRL was provided with a new building. Do you remember that, the move to a new laboratory? </p>
  
Was Texas Instruments' Research Division booming? Would the addition of a lot of new staff have made a new building necessary? Do you recall what the motivation was for a new laboratory?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. We were glad to have that new building. </p>
  
The group was getting sufficiently big and we just didn't have room for new people to come in to have a place to work. Also, the quarters were not as convenient as they needed to be.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was Texas Instruments' Research Division booming? Would the addition of a lot of new staff have made a new building necessary? Do you recall what the motivation was for a new laboratory? </p>
  
There is something else that you write here that's intriguing. You wrote: "The tantalum capacitor development story is too long and involved so I won't go into it now. While the demand for the product was great, the technological problems also seemed harder to solve than we anticipated. It's possible that we went too far too fast without first having the fundamental technical understanding needed for rapid progress. This demonstrates the need in some instances for a parallel basic research program to run simultaneously with a high-technology development project." Was that a frequent tension in research at Texas Instruments?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
I'm not necessarily interested in the tantalum transistor, necessarily, but the concept of basic research as distinct from high-technology development. It seems like what we were saying before suggests that your laboratory, the CRL, was responsible for basic research, whereas, Shepard was responsible for development? Is that accurate?
+
<p>The group was getting sufficiently big and we just didn't have room for new people to come in to have a place to work. Also, the quarters were not as convenient as they needed to be. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
More or less. But, it took a number of years for him be able to handle things having as much basic type of work as he was able to handle later.
+
<p>There is something else that you write here that's intriguing. You wrote: "The tantalum capacitor development story is too long and involved so I won't go into it now. While the demand for the product was great, the technological problems also seemed harder to solve than we anticipated. It's possible that we went too far too fast without first having the fundamental technical understanding needed for rapid progress. This demonstrates the need in some instances for a parallel basic research program to run simultaneously with a high-technology development project." Was that a frequent tension in research at Texas Instruments? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I'm not necessarily interested in the tantalum transistor, necessarily, but the concept of basic research as distinct from high-technology development. It seems like what we were saying before suggests that your laboratory, the CRL, was responsible for basic research, whereas, Shepard was responsible for development? Is that accurate? </p>
  
You mean it took him a while to set up his division?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>More or less. But, it took a number of years for him be able to handle things having as much basic type of work as he was able to handle later. </p>
  
He just didn't know how to do research.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You mean it took him a while to set up his division? </p>
  
I see. But tell me, did you feel that in your research lab were you doing pure science?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>He just didn't know how to do research. </p>
  
No, it wasn't pure science, but it at least had enough pure science in it and people who had enough knowledge of pure science to do a pretty good job.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
=== Honors ===
+
<p>I see. But tell me, did you feel that in your research lab were you doing pure science? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
In 1962 for IEEE's—it was the IRE at that time—for the IRE's 50th anniversary, you wrote just a page forecasting what technology would be like in 2012.
+
<p>No, it wasn't pure science, but it at least had enough pure science in it and people who had enough knowledge of pure science to do a pretty good job. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
=== Honors  ===
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>In 1962 for IEEE's—it was the IRE at that time—for the IRE's 50th anniversary, you wrote just a page forecasting what technology would be like in 2012. </p>
  
It's remarkably prescient. Did you feel then the same caution and apprehension that you feel now about prognosticating?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
Well, it was a very different situation, I think. I'm very firm in my belief that I did a really good job at TI, and Bell too. But, some other people have done good jobs at those places as well. I don't want to take the point of view that I have to be a know-it-all with respect to other people.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>It's remarkably prescient. Did you feel then the same caution and apprehension that you feel now about prognosticating? </p>
  
You say that you feel as though you've done a really good job for Bell Labs and TI, and that is beyond dispute. The walls are just cluttered with plaques and testimonials. What accomplishments are you proudest of?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Well, it was a very different situation, I think. I'm very firm in my belief that I did a really good job at TI, and Bell too. But, some other people have done good jobs at those places as well. I don't want to take the point of view that I have to be a know-it-all with respect to other people. </p>
  
I address that in "Honors and Professional Recognitions" on page 3. Well, of course 1926 goes back to Baylor University and Kappa Epsilon Alpha was a good scholarship society. So I at that time was doing pretty good work. And that was the year before I graduated.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You say that you feel as though you've done a really good job for Bell Labs and TI, and that is beyond dispute. The walls are just cluttered with plaques and testimonials. What accomplishments are you proudest of? </p>
  
Was it an actual organization or club? Or simply a distinction that you earned?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I address that in "Honors and Professional Recognitions" on page 3. Well, of course 1926 goes back to Baylor University and Kappa Epsilon Alpha was a good scholarship society. So I at that time was doing pretty good work. And that was the year before I graduated. </p>
  
It was a distinction, but it generally meant that you were doing good work. As for Sigma Chi Xi, I've got it written down as 1929, but I've recently realized that I actually got that in 1928 which was my second year at Brown University. This was an honorary research society that indicated that my ability to do research-type of jobs and studies had come up to what the people regarded as forecasting an indication that I would be able to do research adequately.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was it an actual organization or club? Or simply a distinction that you earned? </p>
  
You proved yourself "promising."
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It was a distinction, but it generally meant that you were doing good work. As for Sigma Chi Xi, I've got it written down as 1929, but I've recently realized that I actually got that in 1928 which was my second year at Brown University. This was an honorary research society that indicated that my ability to do research-type of jobs and studies had come up to what the people regarded as forecasting an indication that I would be able to do research adequately. </p>
  
Yes that was it.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You proved yourself "promising." </p>
  
Was that based on a paper that you did or your professors' observations of your work or your grades?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes that was it. </p>
  
This was the professors' observation of my whole way of working and studying and learning the things I was being taught. Then going on beyond things learned to make conclusions a good researcher should be able to make, although that can be different for every man.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was that based on a paper that you did or your professors' observations of your work or your grades? </p>
  
Did you do a much independent study while at Brown? Is that what you mean by going beyond?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>This was the professors' observation of my whole way of working and studying and learning the things I was being taught. Then going on beyond things learned to make conclusions a good researcher should be able to make, although that can be different for every man. </p>
  
Yes, but I came out with the ability to see new possibilities in the research. Then in 1952, I went on tour as speaker for American Chemical Society. I spoke on the subject of chemistry of semiconductors and transistors, single crystals of germanium and silicon. I went through the State of New York, a number of different cities all over New York State, and then several universities in the Midwest in several different states—like Kansas and Missouri, Illinois. Then the southwestern United States.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
These are just things that come out of all of this: Honorary Life Fellow. A group in the Texas Academy of Science made this conclusion of giving me an Honorary Life Fellowship.
+
<p>Did you do a much independent study while at Brown? Is that what you mean by going beyond? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
These are the awards that others have bestowed on you. But how about the work that you yourself have done in terms of feeling proud of the work?
+
<p>Yes, but I came out with the ability to see new possibilities in the research. Then in 1952, I went on tour as speaker for American Chemical Society. I spoke on the subject of chemistry of semiconductors and transistors, single crystals of germanium and silicon. I went through the State of New York, a number of different cities all over New York State, and then several universities in the Midwest in several different states—like Kansas and Missouri, Illinois. Then the southwestern United States. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>These are just things that come out of all of this: Honorary Life Fellow. A group in the Texas Academy of Science made this conclusion of giving me an Honorary Life Fellowship. </p>
  
I felt pretty good about getting elected a member of the F&amp;M [correct word ???] in England.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>These are the awards that others have bestowed on you. But how about the work that you yourself have done in terms of feeling proud of the work? </p>
  
I don't necessarily mean which award you're proudest of, but the work that you did that earned the awards. Which of those are you most proud of?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
=== National Bureau of Standards ===
+
<p>I felt pretty good about getting elected a member of the F&amp;M [correct word&nbsp;???] in England. </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I think the job that I did at the National Bureau of Standards was very interesting to me. I enjoyed it thoroughly.
+
<p>I don't necessarily mean which award you're proudest of, but the work that you did that earned the awards. Which of those are you most proud of? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
=== National Bureau of Standards  ===
  
You were saying that the work at the National Bureau of Standards was very interesting.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I think the job that I did at the National Bureau of Standards was very interesting to me. I enjoyed it thoroughly. </p>
  
Yes, it was very interesting to me. I liked the people, and I was interested in the various kinds of jobs, the kinds of work that they did. I thought it was nice that they gave me when I left a Certificate of Appreciation honor scroll, from National Bureau of Standards and the U.S. Department of Commerce. And the citation says: "For personal leadership, furtherance of government-industrial relations and outstanding stewardship of major programs in physical data, standard reference materials, measurement methodology and conceptual understanding as first Director of the NBS Institute for Materials Research." That is signed by Ashton [sic].
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You were saying that the work at the National Bureau of Standards was very interesting. </p>
  
How did you become involved in the National Bureau of Standards?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, it was very interesting to me. I liked the people, and I was interested in the various kinds of jobs, the kinds of work that they did. I thought it was nice that they gave me when I left a Certificate of Appreciation honor scroll, from National Bureau of Standards and the U.S. Department of Commerce. And the citation says: "For personal leadership, furtherance of government-industrial relations and outstanding stewardship of major programs in physical data, standard reference materials, measurement methodology and conceptual understanding as first Director of the NBS Institute for Materials Research." That is signed by Ashton [sic]. </p>
  
I think that the man who was my assistant at TI, Howard Sorda, probably talked to the people at the Bureau of Standards about me and highly recommended me for the way I approach problems. He felt that I had the knowledge about the subject materials and that would benefit the Bureau of Standards.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
Goldstein: Do you know what the National Bureau of Standards was trying to do?
+
<p>How did you become involved in the National Bureau of Standards? </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
They had a whole bunch of people that had been working on a variety of things in other parts of the Bureau of Standards, and they wanted to set up a first-class materials laboratory.  
+
<p>I think that the man who was my assistant at TI, Howard Sorda, probably talked to the people at the Bureau of Standards about me and highly recommended me for the way I approach problems. He felt that I had the knowledge about the subject materials and that would benefit the Bureau of Standards. </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Goldstein: Do you know what the National Bureau of Standards was trying to do? </p>
  
So it was a reorganization?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>They had a whole bunch of people that had been working on a variety of things in other parts of the Bureau of Standards, and they wanted to set up a first-class materials laboratory. </p>
  
They had all the people, but some of them were working on other things than they were after I went there. I had to do a lot of deciding: which man to run this or do that. So I named all of those people up there. Howard Sorda was one of the people. He was my Assistant Director.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So it was a reorganization? </p>
  
You said that you pulled men from other divisions, working on other things. How did that work?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>They had all the people, but some of them were working on other things than they were after I went there. I had to do a lot of deciding: which man to run this or do that. So I named all of those people up there. Howard Sorda was one of the people. He was my Assistant Director. </p>
  
These people were already at the Bureau, but it hadn't been decided what they would be doing. It was up to me to get acquainted with them and place them according to their best abilities were. I had to persuade them that we ought to create group heads that was matched to their abilities.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You said that you pulled men from other divisions, working on other things. How did that work? </p>
  
Why did the job seem attractive to you? Why did you want to do it?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>These people were already at the Bureau, but it hadn't been decided what they would be doing. It was up to me to get acquainted with them and place them according to their best abilities were. I had to persuade them that we ought to create group heads that was matched to their abilities. </p>
  
I thought I was good at materials problems, and I had done an outstanding job at TI. Howard had worked for me there, and thought that the Bureau would like me and that I could speak with enough authority to persuade them to do certain things a certain way.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Why did the job seem attractive to you? Why did you want to do it? </p>
  
But taking the job meant leaving Texas.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I thought I was good at materials problems, and I had done an outstanding job at TI. Howard had worked for me there, and thought that the Bureau would like me and that I could speak with enough authority to persuade them to do certain things a certain way. </p>
  
Yes, it did. But it opened up a new future in a way.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>But taking the job meant leaving Texas. </p>
  
So you were looking forward to the change?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, it did. But it opened up a new future in a way. </p>
  
Yes, I thought it would be a new venture that had the possibilities of being a big thing.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>So you were looking forward to the change? </p>
  
Why? You mean, for you personally?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, I thought it would be a new venture that had the possibilities of being a big thing. </p>
  
Yes. I was in Europe, and I had left TI in Dallas, the headquarters, and was trying to help TI learn something about what to do about R&amp;D in Europe because they had various product centers in a number of different countries. National Bureau was something to come back to, and I think that's why Howard suggested me to the people there.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Why? You mean, for you personally? </p>
  
You were still in Europe when the National Bureau of Standards contacted you?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. I was in Europe, and I had left TI in Dallas, the headquarters, and was trying to help TI learn something about what to do about R&amp;D in Europe because they had various product centers in a number of different countries. National Bureau was something to come back to, and I think that's why Howard suggested me to the people there. </p>
  
Yes, they didn't contact me. They contacted Haggerty; they wrote him a letter. Then they talked to him over the phone, and he called me at midnight so that's the way it went.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You were still in Europe when the National Bureau of Standards contacted you? </p>
  
Did Haggerty recommend that you take the job, or did he not offer an opinion? You didn't get any sense of his preference?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, they didn't contact me. They contacted Haggerty; they wrote him a letter. Then they talked to him over the phone, and he called me at midnight so that's the way it went. </p>
  
I don't really recall whether I did or not. Regardless of what his preference might be, it was up to me to decide what to do. I had two opportunities: One was to go back to Dallas and continue doing things much the same way that I had been doing them. Or go to Washington and try a completely new set-up and decide who's going to do what.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did Haggerty recommend that you take the job, or did he not offer an opinion? You didn't get any sense of his preference? </p>
  
What decisions did you have to make? What system did you put in place there?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I don't really recall whether I did or not. Regardless of what his preference might be, it was up to me to decide what to do. I had two opportunities: One was to go back to Dallas and continue doing things much the same way that I had been doing them. Or go to Washington and try a completely new set-up and decide who's going to do what. </p>
  
I just set up the guys to do certain types of work, after studying what they had previously done, and convince them that that would be a good thing for them.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What decisions did you have to make? What system did you put in place there? </p>
  
Did the National Bureau of Standards give you carte blanche to set up the Materials Research Institute however you wanted?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I just set up the guys to do certain types of work, after studying what they had previously done, and convince them that that would be a good thing for them. </p>
  
I don't know. They seemed to like what I did and suggested, and the men themselves seemed to be looking forward to it, thinking it was going to be interesting to them. Apparently they did like it.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did the National Bureau of Standards give you carte blanche to set up the Materials Research Institute however you wanted? </p>
  
Once you were assigned how long did you stay?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I don't know. They seemed to like what I did and suggested, and the men themselves seemed to be looking forward to it, thinking it was going to be interesting to them. Apparently they did like it. </p>
  
I stayed for half of a year longer than I had promised, which was two years. And they asked me to stay, and the men wanted me to stay. I decided I thought it would be interesting, but I thought the best thing for me to do was to go back to Dallas.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Once you were assigned how long did you stay? </p>
  
Once you were finished assigning men to the different positions, what were your responsibilities? What did you have to do then once the lab was set up and operating?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I stayed for half of a year longer than I had promised, which was two years. And they asked me to stay, and the men wanted me to stay. I decided I thought it would be interesting, but I thought the best thing for me to do was to go back to Dallas. </p>
  
We had regular meetings in which we talked about what needed to be done and the way to handle it, who's going to handle this part and that part. I talked to them a lot about the way we did things in the industry, and I think that was of interest to them. And I think it actually gave me ideas of what we could do and what they could learn about how you do work in the industry.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Once you were finished assigning men to the different positions, what were your responsibilities? What did you have to do then once the lab was set up and operating? </p>
  
You say that you showed them how things were done in industry.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>We had regular meetings in which we talked about what needed to be done and the way to handle it, who's going to handle this part and that part. I talked to them a lot about the way we did things in the industry, and I think that was of interest to them. And I think it actually gave me ideas of what we could do and what they could learn about how you do work in the industry. </p>
  
Yes. I mean, I gave them certain instances. I called up certain companies such as G.E. and R.C.A. They were interested in making a trip to these places and getting them to tell how they run their laboratories.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You say that you showed them how things were done in industry. </p>
  
You mean the companies were interested in sending a representative?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. I mean, I gave them certain instances. I called up certain companies such as G.E. and R.C.A. They were interested in making a trip to these places and getting them to tell how they run their laboratories. </p>
  
No, we took our men to different types of companies.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You mean the companies were interested in sending a representative? </p>
  
Then you toured their research facilities?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No, we took our men to different types of companies. </p>
  
Yes, and listened to them talk about how they worked and what did they expect from the Bureau of Standards and what could the Bureau achieve and help them to do better than they were doing at the time we arrived. I think they found it very rewarding.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Then you toured their research facilities? </p>
  
Did you learn anything at any of these different companies?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes, and listened to them talk about how they worked and what did they expect from the Bureau of Standards and what could the Bureau achieve and help them to do better than they were doing at the time we arrived. I think they found it very rewarding. </p>
  
In a number of cases I visited other companies while with TI. We had meetings on some subject of interest to them, where they thought they might do something for us that would be beneficial to them. It was pretty interesting.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Did you learn anything at any of these different companies? </p>
  
How many people were in this traveling entourage? If you said there were 600 staff members.
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>In a number of cases I visited other companies while with TI. We had meetings on some subject of interest to them, where they thought they might do something for us that would be beneficial to them. It was pretty interesting. </p>
  
Only these men.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>How many people were in this traveling entourage? If you said there were 600 staff members. </p>
  
When did you meet Leland Ruben?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Only these men. </p>
  
He was my boss.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>When did you meet Leland Ruben? </p>
  
Was he was on the same level as you at any time?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>He was my boss. </p>
  
Initially he was. E.H. White—Edison White—he reported to Leland, so this was the department I got into.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Was he was on the same level as you at any time? </p>
  
Now in 1948 and '49 when you wanted to do the experiments with germanium crystals and you weren't getting permission, who did you speak to? Who on this chart did you have to confer with?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Initially he was. E.H. White—Edison White—he reported to Leland, so this was the department I got into. </p>
  
Edison White and Leland ran the department. I did most of my talking to Edison White. He made things easier for me to get things done.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Now in 1948 and '49 when you wanted to do the experiments with germanium crystals and you weren't getting permission, who did you speak to? Who on this chart did you have to confer with? </p>
  
Why did you stay the extra half-year?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Edison White and Leland ran the department. I did most of my talking to Edison White. He made things easier for me to get things done. </p>
  
I think I because they wanted me to, and of course they wanted me to stay permanently, but as I've already told you I decided that there were too many things that would involve judging the men.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Why did you stay the extra half-year? </p>
  
You had to do performance evaluations?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I think I because they wanted me to, and of course they wanted me to stay permanently, but as I've already told you I decided that there were too many things that would involve judging the men. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>You had to do performance evaluations? </p>
  
Had you already decided to leave before you knew you needed to go back to Texas?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
No, I didn't have to leave. I just decided that I had been in private business operation for my whole career up to that point, I decided I’d rather stay in private industry.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Had you already decided to leave before you knew you needed to go back to Texas? </p>
  
Why did you go back to Texas the moment you did?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>No, I didn't have to leave. I just decided that I had been in private business operation for my whole career up to that point, I decided I’d rather stay in private industry. </p>
  
I didn't think it was fair to keep putting them off.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Why did you go back to Texas the moment you did? </p>
  
I'm thinking of that last half year. They wanted you to stay, and you agreed to stay on a temporary basis?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I didn't think it was fair to keep putting them off. </p>
  
I'd thought it over, and thought Ambler, he's one smart guy, should replace me at the National Bureau.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>I'm thinking of that last half year. They wanted you to stay, and you agreed to stay on a temporary basis? </p>
  
What was the condition of the lab when you left?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I'd thought it over, and thought Ambler, he's one smart guy, should replace me at the National Bureau. </p>
  
It was operating fine.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What was the condition of the lab when you left? </p>
  
Tell me why working for the NBS was so rewarding?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>It was operating fine. </p>
  
They seemed to be so set on the things that I encouraged them to do.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>Tell me why working for the NBS was so rewarding? </p>
  
They were supportive and appreciative, and you liked that?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>They seemed to be so set on the things that I encouraged them to do. </p>
  
Yes.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>They were supportive and appreciative, and you liked that? </p>
  
Did the Materials Research Institute write technical memoranda and promulgate standards? That was their normal function?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>Yes. </p>
  
They could tackle almost anything. This is what I was looking for : "Dr. Teal is Director of the Institute for Materials Research at the National Bureau of Standards, Washington, D.C. This paper was presented on October 11, 1966, before the members of the Industrial Research Institute for their meeting in the Statler-Hilton Hotel in Detroit, Michigan. It was one of the five papers presented to discuss the various aspects of the work of the National Bureau of Standards."
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
I was in the Institute for Materials—I mean, in the IRI (Industrial Research Institute). I represented TI in that for years. And I still go to that occasionally. My idea was to get them involved with IRI.
+
<p>Did the Materials Research Institute write technical memoranda and promulgate standards? That was their normal function? </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
TI or the NBS?
+
<p>They could tackle almost anything. This is what I was looking for&nbsp;: "Dr. Teal is Director of the Institute for Materials Research at the National Bureau of Standards, Washington, D.C. This paper was presented on October 11, 1966, before the members of the Industrial Research Institute for their meeting in the Statler-Hilton Hotel in Detroit, Michigan. It was one of the five papers presented to discuss the various aspects of the work of the National Bureau of Standards." </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I was in the Institute for Materials—I mean, in the IRI (Industrial Research Institute). I represented TI in that for years. And I still go to that occasionally. My idea was to get them involved with IRI. </p>
  
NBS, and thereby have a means of their having future contacts with industry through IRI because there are a large number of people in the IRI, and they represent a lot of companies in the U.S. It went over terrifically with IRI and also with the Bureau.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>TI or the NBS? </p>
  
What resulted? Conferences?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>NBS, and thereby have a means of their having future contacts with industry through IRI because there are a large number of people in the IRI, and they represent a lot of companies in the U.S. It went over terrifically with IRI and also with the Bureau. </p>
  
I got them to set up a meeting right there at the Bureau one time. And then they started having periodic meetings with them every now and then.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What resulted? Conferences? </p>
  
What issues would they discuss at the meetings?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>
  
'''Teal:'''
+
<p>I got them to set up a meeting right there at the Bureau one time. And then they started having periodic meetings with them every now and then. </p>
  
Almost anything that anybody had. They talk about practically anything that has to do with the efficiency of the industrial research effort and so forth.
+
<p>'''Goldstein:''' </p>
  
'''Goldstein:'''
+
<p>What issues would they discuss at the meetings? </p>
  
What results did these meetings? Did the National Bureau of Standards get a better idea of what industry was?
+
<p>'''Teal:''' </p>